100W floodlight outdoor - FCU single-gag switch?

[floodlight]

Hi all - need your valuable help to install a new 100W LED PIR floodlight outdoors (garden) and a CCTV. This is a new built with a few 30A RCCB protection units installed in the consumer unit. We are looking to install the floodlight and cctv in the garden. There is currently a light fixture outdoors controlled via an indoor single gang switch. The current outdoor fixture is connected to a twin-earth cable. We are trying to find the best and safest possible way to install the floodlight and cctv without drilling through the walls. Most importantly, we're looking to have both in a protected/isolated line. Extremely appreciative if ppl can offers they thoughts on the following. I wonder if its possible/to: 1) change the indoor single gang switch to a fused single-gang switch limiting supply with a 3A fuse; 2) remove the current outdoor lights and place a P66 four- or five way junction box; 3) connect the existing twin and earth cable to the floodlight and the cctv via two SWA 1.5mm (?) (both drawing from the same source-cable); 4) place all cables into separate conduits/wastepipes and fix to the wall. Obviously, the indoor switch will always stay 'on' but at least the circuit is protected in case something goes wrong. This is just an idea at the first stage - not attempting anything unless it's 100% compliant with code and permitted work etc. Is this the best way to do it? Can we change the single gang switch to a fused switch or it's unlikely the existing switch will have the required cables? Should I assume the single-gang switch (farthest one in the light circuit) will be missing cables? If the cables are missing, any other way? Any thoughts are extremely appreciated!! Again, not attempting anything unless all t's are crossed and tests conducted etc. If cctv and floodlight are too much to be at the light circuit, then we can lose the cctv and put a battery-powered one (less ideal)... The current light is similar to the attached picture.

 

[ericmark]

There was a limit for tungsten lighting of around 150 watt without planning consent, I don't know if this has been updated when we went to LED, but would think in domestic 30 watt is about the limit for outdoor lighting.

I know I had a 70 watt metal halide lamp, which was great for a BBQ but otherwise was really OTT.

Twin and earth is not rated for outdoor use, two problems, one the flat section is hard to get a stuffing gland to seal on, and the outer is not resistance enough to UV light, so it needs to be protected from direct sun light, outdoor cable is normally black as it seems black plastic can resist UV light better.

I have moved house 4 years ago now, but it has resulted in inheriting a outdoor lighting system which was not really suitable, and am also aware of the problems with a neighbour quite a distance away who has lights on all night, however that is still better than lights switching on/off all night. So one needs to consider how best to control, and there is no magic formula, it depends on so many things, I found PIR lights were either triggered by cats, trees, passing cars, squirrels etc. or they would switch off at most inopportune time.

My house has parking front and rear, I can park three cars without a problem including turning around on my property, and at the rear I need to walk past most of the house to get to a door into house, so I have moved to smart lighting. Mixture of bulbs, switches, and socket adaptors. I find google home I can group all into outside, and label them as lights, so easy to turn on all together or all off together, with the phone, or once in house voice commands.

I have found only some devices have dust and dawn built in, this is handy for milkman as can turn on at 5:30 am and off at dawn 3 days of the week, he visits latter on Saturday. But the big problem is no one seems to advertise what their smart devices will do, I think as some functions done in the device, and some in the software? I know the Tapo (TP-Link) stuff does have dust and dawn built in.

When using a smart bulb, one can select how bright, and even colour changing, and can have one supply to many lamps and control each one independently, but using smart switches can work out cheaper, and allow manual control. PIR's can be used with smart stuff, but as yet I have not installed any as wild life triggers them. But I have got a door push which as well as the bells turns on lights.

 

[flameport]

install a new 100W LED PIR floodlight outdoors (garden)

Is this garden the size of a football stadium?

1) change the indoor single gang switch to a fused single-gang switch limiting supply with a 3A fuse;

Possible but what do you believe a 3A fuse will provide that's not already provided by the protective device in the consumer unit?

2) remove the current outdoor lights and place a P66 four- or five way junction box;

Yes, but for what reason? What are the four or five items which will be connected there?

3) connect the existing twin and earth cable to the floodlight and the cctv via two SWA 1.5mm (?) (both drawing from the same source-cable);

How do you intend to connect SWA to a floodlight and whatever this CCTV device is?
What benefits will SWA provide compared to other types of cable?

; 4) place all cables into separate conduits/wastepipes and fix to the wall.

SWA does not need to be in conduit, and wastepipes are not intended for cables.

Obviously, the indoor switch will always stay 'on' but at least the circuit is protected in case something goes wrong.

The circuit is already protected by the devices in the consumer unit.

 

[JohnW2]

Hi all - need your valuable help to install a new 100W LED PIR floodlight outdoors (garden) ...

Do you really mean that, or are you talking about "100W equivalent" (which would probably be a 12W - 15W LED?

Kind Regards, John

 

[floodlight]

There was a limit for tungsten lighting of around 150 watt without planning consent, I don't know if this has been updated when we went to LED, but would think in domestic 30 watt is about the limit for outdoor lighting.

I know I had a 70 watt metal halide lamp, which was great for a BBQ but otherwise was really OTT.

Twin and earth is not rated for outdoor use, two problems, one the flat section is hard to get a stuffing gland to seal on, and the outer is not resistance enough to UV light, so it needs to be protected from direct sun light, outdoor cable is normally black as it seems black plastic can resist UV light better.

I have moved house 4 years ago now, but it has resulted in inheriting a outdoor lighting system which was not really suitable, and am also aware of the problems with a neighbour quite a distance away who has lights on all night, however that is still better than lights switching on/off all night. So one needs to consider how best to control, and there is no magic formula, it depends on so many things, I found PIR lights were either triggered by cats, trees, passing cars, squirrels etc. or they would switch off at most inopportune time.

My house has parking front and rear, I can park three cars without a problem including turning around on my property, and at the rear I need to walk past most of the house to get to a door into house, so I have moved to smart lighting. Mixture of bulbs, switches, and socket adaptors. I find google home I can group all into outside, and label them as lights, so easy to turn on all together or all off together, with the phone, or once in house voice commands.

I have found only some devices have dust and dawn built in, this is handy for milkman as can turn on at 5:30 am and off at dawn 3 days of the week, he visits latter on Saturday. But the big problem is no one seems to advertise what their smart devices will do, I think as some functions done in the device, and some in the software? I know the Tapo (TP-Link) stuff does have dust and dawn built in.

When using a smart bulb, one can select how bright, and even colour changing, and can have one supply to many lamps and control each one independently, but using smart switches can work out cheaper, and allow manual control. PIR's can be used with smart stuff, but as yet I have not installed any as wild life triggers them. But I have got a door push which as well as the bells turns on lights.

Do you really mean that, or are you talking about "100W equivalent" (which would probably be a 12W - 15W LED?

Kind Regards, John

Many thanks Eric and John - appreciated it. We have had very serious safety issues in the development recently. Criminals are targeting the estate and have jumped into gardens and cars; hence why we are all looking to ramp up the security of our houses. 100W LED may sound a bit of an overkill but it is a security measure for (psychological) deterrence against an active group of criminals. I have talked to the neighbours next to me and they are perfectly fine with it.

Is this garden the size of a football stadium? The garden is not the size of a football stadium but it's fairly long. I have found a smart LED 100W PIR floodlight with modes that can be adjusted by remote control. Most importantly, I can adjust the brightness if necessary in the future.


Possible but what do you believe a 3A fuse will provide that's not already provided by the protective device in the consumer unit? Looking at my CU there are two sets of switches. One for smoke alarm(MTN 106), lighting and ground floor sockets (MTN 132) and another for ground floor lighting (MTN 106), sockets and oven (MTN 132). Each set has a CD285U RCCB 2x(100A) inc 30mA next to it, labelled as RCD controlled circuit. I was not sure if the switch must be fused to provide an extra protection in case that something goes wrong, in the sense that worst case scenario the 3A fuse will break and only the outdoor lighting/cctv will be affected. Is this incorrect? I do not wish to mess with the internal circuits as I don't trust the builders who installed them anyways, that's why I'm looking for maximum protection of the circuit. If I connect the floodlight and CCTV to the existing outdoor cables, wouldn't this be too much load for the circuit to carry 100W + 30/40W cctv?


Yes, but for what reason? What are the four or five items which will be connected there? Well, in that way the junction box is future-proof. If we need to - for example - install a second floodlight or another camera/sensor, then we have the facility in place.


How do you intend to connect SWA to a floodlight and whatever this CCTV device is?
What benefits will SWA provide compared to other types of cable? Not sure. I was under the impression that it will provide extra security against water ingress and UV?


SWA does not need to be in conduit, and wastepipes are not intended for cables. Noted. Then, a 1.5 twin-earth cable should do the trick protected in a round conduit. I am not too concerned about the outdoor setup. This is the easy part I guess. I am seeking advice on how to isolate the outdoor wiring from the rest of the circuit...


The circuit is already protected by the devices in the consumer unit. So, what is your suggestion? Avoid all the hassle and wire the floodlight and cctv to the existing outdoor cable in a waterproof junction box and call it a day?

Flameport - thanks a lot. I have answered the questions in the quote above. I would be grateful for any advice.

 

[ericmark]

So you want to see what the criminals are doing, but also don't want to help them by lighting their way. Inferred is the normal method, with inferred cameras, and then post pictures of the criminals, it does make a huge difference as to area you live in, the state of my garden likely any intruders going anywhere but the front door would injure themselves, hard enough for me to walk around the house in daylight never mind at night with no lights.

Signs like this are the way to go,

if they can see the lights they can also avoid them, when one can't see the cameras or lights, then it's time to move to an easier area, one with loads of lights so you can see what you are doing.

 

[JohnW2]

Many thanks Eric and John - appreciated it. We have had very serious safety issues in the development recently. Criminals are targeting the estate and have jumped into gardens and cars; hence why we are all looking to ramp up the security of our houses. 100W LED may sound a bit of an overkill but it is a security measure for (psychological) deterrence against an active group of criminals. I have talked to the neighbours next to me and they are perfectly fine with it.

Fair enough - it's obviously your decision. As eric pointed out, in terms of light output, 100W of LED is way above what used to be the limit for (incandescent) lighting without planning permission (which I doubt was often granted).

How big is the area you are wanting to illuminate? Are the neighbours happy with the idea of having an extremely bright light outside of their homes during hours of darkness? Do you plan to have this floodlight on continuously (during hours of darkness) or will it be controlled by PIR or some other sort of movement detection?

As I'm sure you are aware, 'security lighting' is somewhat of a two-edged sword, since it helps criminals to 'see what they are doing' (and hence 'do it' more rapidly) - some would argue that no lighting but lots of 'trip hazards' is preferable In terms of 'deterrence', I would have thought that any degree of illumination would be adequate (and, if controlled by movement detectors, would act as a warning that that the intruders may have been detected)

Kind Regards, John

 

[floodlight]

So you want to see what the criminals are doing, but also don't want to help them by lighting their way. Inferred is the normal method, with inferred cameras, and then post pictures of the criminals, it does make a huge difference as to area you live in, the state of my garden likely any intruders going anywhere but the front door would injure themselves, hard enough for me to walk around the house in daylight never mind at night with no lights.

Signs like this View attachment 328314 are the way to go, View attachment 328315 if they can see the lights they can also avoid them, when one can't see the cameras or lights, then it's time to move to an easier area, one with loads of lights so you can see what you are doing.

Hopefully criminals avoid houses with increased security features - it's simply not worth the hassle and they hopefully move to the next one (at least that's the assumption). The LED intends to project psychological deterrence against those thugs and it will be PIR-controlled with all necessary signage posted. The entire estate's experience so far is that these criminals simply don't care about cameras. We have repeatedly captured them opening cars/jumping into gardens and reported to police. The only thing that seemed to have worked with a few neighbours is very bright floodlight.

Fair enough - it's obviously your decision. As eric pointed out, in terms of light output, 100W of LED is way above what used to be the limit for (incandescent) lighting without planning permission (which I doubt was often granted).

How big is the area you are wanting to illuminate? Are the neighbours happy with the idea of having an extremely bright light outside of their homes during hours of darkness? Do you plan to have this floodlight on continuously (during hours of darkness) or will it be controlled by PIR or some other sort of movement detection?

As I'm sure you are aware, 'security lighting' is somewhat of a two-edged sword, since it helps criminals to 'see what they are doing' (and hence 'do it' more rapidly) - some would argue that no lighting but lots of 'trip hazards' is preferable In terms of 'deterrence', I would have thought that any degree of illumination would be adequate (and, if controlled by movement detectors, would act as a warning that that the intruders may have been detected)

Kind Regards, John

The garden is fairly long. I have found a smart LED 100W PIR floodlight with modes that can be adjusted by remote control. Most importantly, I can adjust the brightness if necessary in the future. I looked at the regulations and I could not find any source prohibiting the use of 100W LED. Only one reference saying 'BSI's guidelines specify that all external light fittings must be installed in a way that ensures maximum effectiveness. This means that each lamp must not exceed a maximum of 150 watts.' Guidance from local authorities says planning permission is required only if "large-scale lighting such as the floodlighting of football stadiums or public tennis courts". Not an expert by any means, but I think stadiums normally require several 100s watts LED. I have found a smart LED 100W PIR floodlight with modes that can be adjusted by remote control. Most importantly, I can adjust the brightness if necessary in the future. I have talked to the neighbours next to me and they perfectly happy with it as they are facing the same problem. The light will be positioned in way to illuminate my garden only. There is no risk of continuous false triggers from animals (we have not had any animals so far) - I can adjust the sensitivity to trigger only if someone jumps in my garden, hence one would expect the LED should barely really go off unless there is an intruder. Trip hazards are not an option really due to the liabilities attached to them. Being said, I am more concerned about the setup and wiring issue...

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I have found only some devices have dust and dawn built in, this is handy for milkman as can turn on at 5:30 am and off at dawn 3 days of the week, he visits latter on Saturday. But the big problem is no one seems to advertise what their smart devices will do, I think as some functions done in the device, and some in the software? I know the Tapo (TP-Link) stuff does have dust and dawn built in.

In Alexa, that can be done by Alexa. You set it up to know where you are located, and from that, it can work out precisely when dusk and dawn times are, around the year. You can then offset from those times, plus or minus, however many minutes you might want.

 

[JohnW2]

.... I looked at the regulations and I could not find any source prohibiting the use of 100W LED. Only one reference saying 'BSI's guidelines specify that all external light fittings must be installed in a way that ensures maximum effectiveness. This means that each lamp must not exceed a maximum of 150 watts.'

That's what eric was referring to, and was written in the pre-LED days, hence the 150W maximum relates to incandescent lamps. As eric said, we are not aware of this having been updated to take into account the appearance of LEDs but, in terms of light output, 150W of incandescent probably equates to no more than 20W of LED.

Trip hazards are not an option really due to the liabilities attached to them. Being said, I am more concerned about the setup and wiring issue...

Sure, I was merely observing, very tongue-in-cheek, what 'some might argue' (and included a smilie after that comment!). However,I do personally agree with the view that 'security lighting' is very much a mixed blessing - and certainly don't think it needs to be particularly bright to have 'deterrent' value.

... Being said, I am more concerned about the setup and wiring issue...

I realise that,and I think you are probably being somewhat over-concerned over what is, electrically, a very straightforward (and very common) situation.

Kind Regards, John