Asbestos

[lisap]

Ive been reading up about asbestos on the 'tinternet' recently and there seems to be conflicting views on the dangers of white asbestos. Some say it not as dangerous as the blue and brown asbestos, others say its equally dangerous. Just wondered what you lot think!

 

[AdamW]

When I was a student I spent a summer working at a "waste transfer station" (i.e. the council tip).

At this tip we had an asbestos disposal facility. Basically just an ISO container so someone could come along, say "Here is my asbestos", pay at the desk and bring it up to the container. It was never clearly defined as to who puts the asbestos into the container so I thought "better keep safe" and avoided ever going anywhere near that damn box.

One day the foreman came up to me, said it was only white asbestos concrete so was perfectly safe. Yet strangely, despite being generally hands-on with the job HE refused to ever go in there.

One of my fellow tip-workers who was a bit simple (and amusingly called Simon ) used to just stroll in there, dust and all. He would always come up with skin irritation not long after, looked like he had been rubbing his arms with fibreglass insulation or something.

So I would say "bo**ocks" to anyone who claims it is safe. It isn't, it never was. And it isn't even a recent discovery that asbestos kills, the Romans used to send people to work in the asbestos quarries as a punishment that would ensure a long painful suffering before death.

Asbestos is never safe. Ever. There is always an increased risk over alternative materials. OK, statistically asbestos concrete is probably as dangerous as smoking and people still smoke, but why risk it?

 

[waran]

There have been a few epidemiological studies looking at the different cumulative exposure levels and mortality/incidence of cancer.

Two types of cancers are recognised. Lung cancer (cancer of the main airways) and mesothelioma (cancer of the lining around the lung).

From the HSE paper, the ratio of risk for mesothelioma is 1:100:500 - white:brown:blue. i.e. your risk of getting mesothelioma is 500 times greater if you have been exposed to blue asbestos compared to white asbestos. For lung cancer it is about 10-50 times greater for both blue and brown asbestos than white. It's been quoted that lifetime risk for lung cancer for white asbestos alone is 0.1%-0.5% although I'm not sure what exposure levels they were talking about. Especially as increase in risk with exposure rises exponentially. Also if you smoke the risk is additive.

Asbestos exposure also causes fibrosis at presumably much less exposure but this is much harder to quantify in studies. Again the blue and brown type cause much greater incidence than the white type.

Interestingly in the US white asbestos is still used but at a level of 0.1 fibre per mililitre. Although It is very heavily regulted and I think they are planning a total ban. In many third world countries white asbestos is still used with little regulation.

Adam right that the dangers of asbestos have been known for a long time. It was first described in the medical literature in 1924! I believe the reference to the Romans has been discredited though. Still the premise is true, it's a dangerous compound in all it's guises.

Although a cynic would say that the only reason it's been banned is that occupational exposure has been well proved and therefore opened the companies involved to litigation.

 

[lisap]

Its interesting because one council said its safe to remove white asbestos yourselves without the protection, just try to keep it whole, whether it be roofing sheets or guttering. then other reports go totally the other way.
So are the risks of getting lung cancer from smoking of higher risk/ similar risk? I saw it was was increased if you do both. White asbestos fibres are meant to have a shorer 'life span' in the body so hence the idea less problems are caused by it . I know workmen that dont give a toss and deal with it without masks etc. its okay if you are about fiftyfive because it takes the disease on average 35yrs to materialise!!

Its interesting you say they still use it in america as someone said the other day they have banned MDF over there,. Is MDF going to be the asbestos of the future?
(I think i've gone a bit deep today!! )

 

[fitter]

I use a lot of mdf, I certainly hope there will be no long term problems.

I like to look after myself and have just recently cut down to 4 fry ups per week, 60 fags aday and only 4 nights a week in the boozer, please tell me this is not in vain, I really miss that 5th fry up

 

[AdamW]

I use a lot of mdf, I certainly hope there will be no long term problems.

I like to look after myself and have just recently cut down to 4 fry ups per week, 60 fags aday and only 4 nights a week in the boozer, please tell me this is not in vain, I really miss that 5th fry up

Nah, go for the 5th fry-up, provided you make allowances elsewhere: switch your full-cream milk for semi-skimmed in the cup of tea you have with it.

Back in the early 90s when I were a wee nipper just starting secondary school, we used a LOT of MDF in Technology class. In fact, most of the "wood" we used was MDF. So, belt sanders, jigsaws, drills, files etc all being used with dry MDF. There was a big industrial dust extraction system going on the whole time, but still doesn't seem that safe now!

Boy did we love to use that belt sander

 

[AdamW]

I know workmen that dont give a toss and deal with it without masks etc. its okay if you are about fiftyfive because it takes the disease on average 35yrs to materialise!!

You hear about all these people who spent their whole life working in an asbestos factory cutting the stuff with handsaws who lived to be 105 and died when they were running for a bus, it really is a statistical thing. If you only handle very small amounts of it, infrequently, and you aren't predisposed to being affected, you would probably be alright. However, if you were feeling alert and observant you could run back and forth across a motorway for half an hour and probably be OK, still wouldn't want to risk it though!

When I worked on that tip I witnessed terrible negligence with asbestos:
1) Some idiot who didn't want to pay to get rid of it, so they hid a piece of asbestos pipe in their green waste... some poor s*d had to go and fish it out

2) People driving in with a car full of the stuff, windows down and the dust blowing everywhere.

3) One which left me speechless: someone was dumping some asbestos so the container was open. This old boy had a broken asbestos sheet on the roof of his garage so he nipped in there, had a rummage around, found a bit that was the same corrugated pattern as his then walked out with it. He then proceded to snap it in half (he didn't want the whole sheet) and gave us the rest back. Now as far as I know that is totally illegal but what can you do? No way I was standing in the cloud of dust, and even if I did, would the police really want to arrest a 70 year old for asbestos theft?

 

[pipme]

Have a peek here :-
http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk/need.html
P

 

[fitter]

It's amazing how you can do something so stupid.

About 10 years ago I was given the job of building units and fitting out the reception area of a masons lodge. The job was worth several thousand to me and I was overjoyed.

It was to be made of mdf and needed 20 sheets of 10x6. My main worry was the moving about the sheets which was backbreaking even with a helper.

I had to make about 40 doors of various sizes, all of 18mm mdf, to make them more interesting I decided to rebate them on the face 8mm deep by 60 mm wide and use solid timber 15x60 with a moulding on the inside edge.

Now for some strange reason I decided to rout this rebate. To make it less boring I broke them up into 8 sets. I was about half way through the first set when I realised I could not breath, I had been doing all this without any protection. Once I had got all the muck out of my system, which took about 2 days, I bought an all singing respirator, cost me £150 but was worth every penny.

I just cannot believe I was so stupid as to attempt the job without one.

Just to make the job complete, when cutting the mouldings on the chop saw, I made some adjustable stops, all I had to do was slide the moulding up to the stop with my left hand, move my hand out of the way and cut. I forgot to move my hand out of the way, nearly cutting my little finger off.
ten stitches and still very little feeling.

All this and they would have been happy with flat plain doors, that's what I get for being a smart a*se.

 

[waran]

fitter - you might need to watch out with the anti-obesity police soon. They'll lock you up with just bread and water. of course you could always say you're a celebrity and you're doing the Atkins.

On the smoking issue lisa, you are ten times more likely to develop lung cancer as a smoker than a non smoker. and if you smoke more than 20/day then the risk is 30-40 times greater. and it's not just lung cancer, smokers are between 8 and 25 times more likely to die at a given age than a non smoker. Also you get more ill health as you get older with 95% of smokers developing changes in the lungs that make it more difficult to breathe.

From one study, if you don't smoke and you are exposed to asbestos you are about 5 times more likely to get lung cancer. If you do smoke and are exposed to asbestos then you are 50 times more likely to get lung cancer. (compare with if you smoke and aren't exposed to asbestos then you are 10 times more likely to get lung cancer). Roughly speaking then smoking is twice the effect of exposure to asbestos. I think that answers your query lisa.

Interestingly, passive smoking contributes to the majority of lung cancer in non smokers. And if the effect of passive smoking is compared to that of general population white asbestos exposure, it seems that you are almost 100 times more likely to get lung cancer with passive smoking.

Given that there is a ban on asbestos and strict regulations on it's removal and disposal perhaps there should also be a ban on smoking in public!!!! Or perhaps we should just let the poor suffer............

 

[masona]

I use a lot of mdf, I certainly hope there will be no long term problems.

Providing you wear the correct mask, goggle & ear plug you shouldn't have any problem. The dusts will get into your eyes , nose, and ear ! What did you say ?
All my power tools have a adapter connection for a vacuum cleaner to collect all the dusts when I'm cutting MDF boards.

 

[AdamW]

Those comments by good ole' Dr. Reid, what a scamp he is

My father is a smoker, has been all my life despite constant reasoning from my Mum, my brother, my sister and me. I really hate it.

Anyway, when I moved out I didn't notice any change, but when I go back to my parents' the cigarette smell is overpowering and the cigarettes he smokes make me feel rather unwell.

I guess this is a good thing as it shows I am no longer a passive smoker!

However, I do get rather angry when I go to the pub, sit in the non-smoking section but still get stunk out by smoke drifting in. My life being shortened by someone else's lack of willpower.

Make the whole practice illegal, that's what I say.

Right, now for those blissful 2 minutes before the pro-smokers rebuttal

 

[lisap]

Make the whole practice illegal, that's what I say.

:

I totally agree. I love going to the pub but hate coming out smelling like an ashtray. I think there should be smoking rooms in pubs, like the good old days, with a door on to keep them all in! Then we could breath easy!

 

[fitter]

So as a smoker, who has worked with asbestos and mdf, I'm on a pretty short road then.

So many kitchens to fit, so little time left....what a bummer!!

 

[AdamW]

Well, a lot of it is luck of the draw: I was in the pub with a mate of mine who I've known since school tonight. He was telling me that a colleague of his recently dropped dead of a heart attack at 37.

When he heard one of his colleagues had died suddenly of a heart attack he assumed it was the contractor who had a big fry up every morning, ate no other meals and got the rest of his daily nutrition from 10 pints of ale and 20 fags.

Instead it turned out to be the guy who was a real 24/7 character, thin and apparently healthy, always playing sports or at work.

However, he showed me a picture of the beer-swiller on his phone, for a man of 37 he looked to be in his 50s...