Changing to Smart Switch - Two way switching + No Neutral

[jake.evans]

Hello Everyone,

I hope someone out there can help please.

Basically I have two way switching for my top landing light which can be controlled from the switch downstairs, and can be controlled from upstairs. The switch has become ancient and I have managed to change all my switches upstairs and downstairs to smart switches (RF) except for these two way switched ones as I'm unsure how to wire it up as its in bit of a mess already.
I say mess, because I can't for the life of me find a diagram that matches my two way system against ones online, each switch only has single wires connected, and upstairs seems to have an issue of not having a permanent live by the looks of things so I'm not sure how would I go about wiring a smart switch in? Its Lightwave so no neutral required, it just shows it needs a live wire, signal wire (low voltage), and switched live so how would I go about doing this. I'm dreading the the thought of having to get the switches rewired if I wanted smart switching so any alternative advice would be appreciated.

I've taken off the switches from the wall and they are wired in this configuration

[GALLERY=media, 105668]Downstairs Switch by jake.evans posted 10 Dec 2020 at 4:13 PM[/GALLERY]
Downstairs Switch (Correct Way Up)
COM - 1 Red Wire
L1 - 1 Black Wire with red sleeving (Switched i'm guessing)
L2 - 1 Red Wire

[GALLERY=media, 105669]Upstairs Switch by jake.evans posted 10 Dec 2020 at 4:16 PM[/GALLERY]
Upstairs Switch (Mounted Wrong Way Up)
COM - 1 Red Wire
L1 - 1 Black Wire with red sleeving (Switched i'm guessing)
L2 - 1 Red Wire

Even though upstairs mounted the wrong way up, here's how its working at the moment:
If both switches are up, the lights are off
If one switch is up, other is down, the lights are on
If both switches are down, the lights are off

For the purpose of diagnosing, this is what happens in terms of the wiring being on/off:
[DOWNSTAIRS SWITCH]
If the downstairs switch is "up-off" and upstairs switch is "up-off" (remembering its the opp way mounted)
Then
COM - LIVE
L2 - LIVE
L1 - OFF (Black Wire/Red Sleeved switched)

If the downstairs switch is "down-on" and upstairs switch is "down-on" (remembering its the opp way mounted)
Then
COM - LIVE
L2 - OFF
L1 - ON (Black Wire/Red Sleeved switched)

If the downstairs switch is "up-off" and upstairs switch is "down-on" (remembering its the opp way mounted)
Then
COM - LIVE
L2 - LIVE
L1 - OFF (Black Wire/Red Sleeved switched)

[UPSTAIRS SWITCH]
If the downstairs switch is "up-off" and upstairs switch is "up-off" (remembering its the opp way mounted)
Then
COM - OFF
L2 - LIVE
L1 - OFF (Black Wire/Red Sleeved switched)

If the downstairs switch is "down-on" and upstairs switch is "down-on" (remembering its the opp way mounted)
Then
COM - OFF
L2 - OFF
L1 - ON (Black Wire/Red Sleeved switched)

If the downstairs switch is "up-off" and upstairs switch is "down-on" (remembering its the opp way mounted)
Then
COM - LIVE
L2 - LIVE
L1 - OFF (Black Wire/Red Sleeved switched)

I would really appreciate the help.

----------------
Here's a picture of the upstairs ceiling light wiring if this helps too
[GALLERY=media, 105670]Upstairs Light Fitting by jake.evans posted 10 Dec 2020 at 7:46 PM[/GALLERY]

Regards,
Jake

 

[sparxxxx]

I've taken off the switches from the wall and they are wired in this configuration

Downstairs Switch (Correct Way Up)
COM - 1 Red Wire
L1 - 1 Black Wire with red sleeving (Switched i'm guessing)
L2 - 1 Red Wire

Upstairs Switch (Mounted Wrong Way Up)
COM - 1 Red Wire
L1 - 1 Black Wire with red sleeving (Switched i'm guessing)
L2 - 1 Red Wire

Your description indicates that somewhere there is a junction box, that you need to locate. Try the loft, but most common place would be 1st floor landing under the floor.

Edit - Also look behind the light fittings

Edit - my comment is incorrect, because I had not seen the photos, that clearly show t&e and s&e, apologies to the OP.

The live and switch wire will normally behind the light fittings.

 

[jake.evans]

Thanks for your speedy reply @sparxxxx
I'll try to locate this, fingers crossed its in the loft.

Regards,
Jake

 

[sparxxxx]

Also look behind the light fittings

 

[EFLImpudence]

 

[sparxxxx]

View attachment 214240

That's a single core way of doing it, his circuit uses T&E and therefore cannot wired as your schematic

Edit - my comment is incorrect, because I had not seen the photos, that clearly show t&e and s&e, apologies to OP and EFL

 

[EFLImpudence]

That's a single core way of doing it, his circuit uses T&E and therefore cannot wired as your schematic

Look again.

 

[jake.evans]

Hi sparxxxx & EFLImpudence,

Thanks for your advice and help,

So the question is, whats the best way of sorting this out in my situation so I can swap these to smart switches/dimmers?
If I find the juction box, would I need to alter the way its connected? or is there something simple that can be done to get them working?
I'm guessing it will involve swapping cables to bring a live permanent feed to the switch? or would it need rewiring?

I've also attached the upstairs light fitting wiring, just the usual cables so I'll try to dig out and find the junction box tommorow.

Regards,
Jake

 

[sparxxxx]

Look at EFL's sketch, you only have a live at one switch, and you don't have neutral's at either switch. The wiring could be altered to give a permanent live and permanent switchline at each switch, imagine the switch blades shown as a permanent connections. Your smart switches would connect the two together and as long as the switches can control each other it will work.

So the question is can your switches, control each other ie can one switch turn the other one OFF and vice versa.