Circular Saw Advice

[rt18]

I'm venturing into woodworking and wish to buy a circular saw. I've watched a stack of videos of woodworkers using amazing looking Pro tools, circular saws with guides etc., and now I can only picture myself using the same. However, realistically my budget shouldn't be blown on a circular saw if I'm then scrimping on other things.

I see on other threads on here the recommendation is to go with a good Brand, but being new I don't know one brand from another. DeWalt versus LumberJack versus Bosch etc.

My main worry is spending £200 on a nice model when £100 might have given me the same result from a less Pro device. I'll be using it infequently (hobbyist) so I don't need something that's heavy duty.

Thanks in advance all, looking forward to your responses

 

[Diver Fred]

Best suggestion is buy a tracksaw with tracks. Just be careful on which make (which you're asking anyway). Falls into 2 (track) camps in your price range Scheppach and clones (Grizly, Woodstar, Aldi) or the others (Bosch, Titan, Parkside/Lidl, Makita, even Festool), you want a tool at about 1500watts and 165mm blade. That size of blade will allow you to trim doors from one side.

There is lots of advice on the web / youtoob - Peter Millard is pretty good for advice.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Falls into 2 (track) camps in your price range Scheppach and clones (Grizly, Woodstar, Aldi) or the others (Bosch, Titan, Parkside/Lidl, Makita, even Festool)

Last time I looked Grizzly was an American brand not normally available in the UK (no distributor AFAIK). I think I'd categorise plunging rail saws as DIY and trade, the trade being Bosch (blue range), deWalt, Festool, Hilti, Mafell, Makita, Metabo and Virutex - all of whom make trade rated plunging rail saws, and DIY which includes Aldi, Einhell, Erbauer, Lidl (Parkside), Scheppach, Titan, etc

In terms of usage I think I'd want ascertain what the OP sees as the main priority of his saw to be. This is important. It's all very well saying go for a plunge saw, but plunge saws, whilst great for breaking down sheets of MDF or plywood, trimming doors, etc are pretty poor when it comes to doing stuff like cross cutting 3 x 2 softwood to make a stud wall, and off the rail they can be far less than "user friendly"

So, OP, what do you see as your priorities?

 

[rt18]

@wgt52 Great, thanks for the power and size recommendation, and list of brands to investigate and teh recommendation to get a tracksaw. I see the usefulness of the track being the ability to straight edge any rough cut wood (I have no table saw) if that's ever a need, but also to generally keep a true straightness of long cuts. But it adds a premium to the cost, and I wonder if it's really much better than clamping a length of straight 2x1 as an edge guide?

@JobAndKnock I expect I'll use this for all sorts of jobs, but my priority will be long(ish) straight cuts in panels of wood, and potentially to straighten any curved or warped edges in rough cut boards. My first ambition is to create a crafting table for the missus, and I intend to join a few lengths of Maple edge on edge. British Hardwood Timbers promises the edges are clean cut, so they should be straight, but I'll be trimming them to length and also making up the supporting framework in Ash, all of which need cutting to length.

I do have an old, hand-me-down, crosscut saw which I can use for cutting lengths, so I don't need the circular saw for that job.

My concern is my ignorance as to which brands are good. I've had cheap screwdrivers before and stripped the driver's teeth clean off when meeting my first stubborn screw. And a cheap electric planer which, well, that was rubbish. Bad tools are worse than no tools.

@wgt52 you said "Scheppach, Grizly, Woodstar, Aldi, Bosch, Titan, Parkside/Lidl, Makita, Festool" were all in my range, but which are recommended? I can't imagine an Aldi saw is better than a Bosch, but I do expect it to be much cheaper. I don't want cheap though if it's nasty.

@JobAndKnock I'm happy with DIY quality (trade is likely too expensive, right?) so long as it's not a toy. Is £200 for a rail saw consdiered cheap or high end DIY? You also listed "Aldi, Einhell, Erbauer, Lidl (Parkside), Scheppach, Titan". I'll get some pricing for rail saws from these brands and compare, I'll put the comparison data here when I have it.

Regarding plunge, I don't get it. The applications mentioned sound like you would approach the piece from the end, not in the middle, so why plunge? I can't imagine (other than cutting a hole in the middle of a board) why I'd need plunge? Is it a rare requirement?

 

[Diver Fred]

May I suggest re-read my posting. What I'd hopefully advised was that there is essentially 2 track systems (there is one or 2 more but are either just not common or very expensive).
The Scheppach & clones is one system, the second list is closer to being the industry standard; Have a look at Linky.

Also have a look at the track saw 'workshops' just put an hour or two on one side to watch the series, I think it will be beneficial.

And this may give you some thoughts on what you want.

With a limited budget I'd suggest that the Track saw is more cost effective; it will do just about everything* a circular saw will do, the accuracy is better due to the track keeping it line, the ones in your price range can be used off the track. OK, the 'plunge' feature can take a little getting used to but in the end it will become 2nd nature in use.

I've had circular saw(s) for best part of 30 years, a track saw for 4 or 5 years; today I find I'm using the track saw almost exclusively over the circular saw*, accuracy is definitely better, less dust especially with dust extractor, safer as the blade is better protected.

* You have to use 2 hands with a track saw were as you can use a circular saw with one hand (which can be seen as being less safe).

 

[johnny2007]

For what you have to do I would get an entry level table saw and a good blade as well as a sliding mitre saw.
All given that you have the space for them.
I have these two machines permanently ready because you can do 90% of jobs with them.

 

[steve22]

I have a Scheppach track saw as have no room really for a table saw and I have been really impressed with it, using the track means perfect cuts and you can even take very fine slices off doors etc.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I see the usefulness of the track being the ability to straight edge any rough cut wood (I have no table saw)

I think you have gained the wrong impression about track saws. They are primary for breaking down and sizing sheet materials such as wall panels, furniture boards, kitchen worktops, doors, etc - in other words the materials you are able to cut with them need to be flat. The other issue is that the guide rails are invariably around 150 to 200mm wide making it awkward to cut multiples of narrow materials with consistent accuracy where the materials are narrower than the guide rails (I will now await the naysayers).

So is a track saw better than clamping ( or screwing or pinning) a length of 2 x 1 to the material? If it is sheet stock, then yes. It is faster, more accurate and gives a better quality of cut

If you want some indication of how much a track saw can speed things up for a tradesman:



That's my waste trims from installing 33 MDF straight edge panels, all cut to different sizes, today. In the past couple of weeks me and my partner have cut and installed pushing 200 panels, many of which also needed cut outs for single or multiple electrical sockets. The saw is a Makita cordless (DSP600), the rails are my old Festool rails, and this is the sort of work a track saw excels at. And BTW a track saw is generally used single handed when on the track, not two handed - it's when you try to use them as a conventional saw that you need both hands to manage them, partly because there is a constant need to fight the plunge return spring. My go to saw for site work, a cordless 165mm Makita, is most often also used single handed when doing crosscuts (because my left hand needs to hold onto the speed square) whilst for ripping timbers a two handed grip is almost always necessary and larger sasw, such as the 230mm Hilti I have almost always needs a 2 handed grip, due to the size, weight and torque of the saw

I'd say that in the days when we did panel cutting with a batten and rip (circular) saw there was a lot of clean up, there were a lot of holes to fill and sand and the edges were never truly straight off the saw. So for that class of work a track saw excels

As others have said, though, they aren't good with narrow stock (unless you invest the time to make jigs which sort of negates part of the reason for having one in the first place) and they are aren't good on narrow material crosscuts unless you build a sort of crosscut table (look at the Festool MFT/3) to see the sort of thing I'm talking about (it should be possible to make one of these at home. They are also poor at narrow rips or working over rough sawn timber because there is insufficient area forvthe rubber strips on the underside to work

My concern is my ignorance as to which brands are good.

The problem is price. The cheapest trade plunging rail saw on the market has to be the Makita SP6000 at about £270. But on top of that you'd need to buy at least two guide rails (£120+) and a pair of rail joiners (£35 or so). That is basic trade set-up (plus the mandatory class M vacuum these days if you are trade). A DIY set-up is going to cost a lot less

I'd still have to ask the question of whether or not it is absolutely necessary - after all we had a chap on here a month or two back who built a very complicated full height book case with little more than a small cordless saw and home made guide. Look for "Complicated Bookcase"

Regarding plunge, I don't get it. ,

It's partly safety - a retracted blade can't bite you - and partly to handle stuff like internal corner cuts in flooring or cladding as well as cut outs, particularly when you need to start in the internal corners. In trade use there are a surprising number of these which need doing but note that the cut always needs to be finished off with a jigsaw a hand saw on visible work - for subflooring we often just run the sawcut slightly past the line ends to.get that cut

 

[rt18]

This is an amazing forums, you guys are being really generous with your time.

OK. So thanks to wg52 for recommending Peter Millard. His workshop on track saws was more valuable than I expected. Honest, pragmatic. I've decided I want a track saw.

Also, he bought an actual Aldi track saw (Scheppach rebadged) and that looked suitable. Unfortunately it's no longer available. So I've put my research below in case anyone else looking into Track Saws wants some 2021 info:

Scheppach PL55 £160 1.4m rail, £215 with 2.8m rail and clamps
Scheppach CS55 appears to be the same saw, discontinued.
Aldi (Scheppach rebadge) Unavailable
Woodstar Divar 55 (Scheppach rebadge) Unavailable
Grizzly T10687 (Scheppach rebadge) Unavailable in UK, $196 in USA
Lidl Parkside (Einhell rebadge) Couldn't find it - seasonal?
Titan - Screwfix brand? Couldn't see any Titan Plunge or Circular Saws though, think they're discontinued.
Bosch GKT 55 £430 1.6m rail (this is the cheapest of the Bosch plunge range)
Makita SP6000J1 £329 1.5m rail (this is the cheapest of the Makita plunge range)
Festool 575963 £619 2.8m rail £552 (this is the cheapest of the Festool plunge range)
Einhell TE-CS 165 (guided saw, not plunge) £63.60
Einhell TE-PS 165 (plunge saw) £90
+ 2m guide rail £40
Erbauer ERB690CSW £150 1.4m rail (requires a Ø185x2.2x20mm blade)

On price alone, there's basically Scheppach (and it's rebadged Also, Woodstar and Grizzly), Lidl Parkside, Titan, Einhell and Erbauer all on the entry level DIY pricing. Then there's Bosch, Makita and Festool which are roughly 2x-3x the price, and I can't justify that.

Updated based on corrections from comments below

 

[lynchnigel]

Best suggestion is buy a tracksaw with tracks. Just be careful on which make (which you're asking anyway). Falls into 2 (track) camps in your price range Scheppach and clones (Grizly, Woodstar, Aldi) or the others (Bosch, Titan, Parkside/Lidl, Makita, even Festool), you want a tool at about 1500watts and 165mm blade. That size of blade will allow you to trim doors from one side.

There is lots of advice on the web / youtoob - Peter Millard is pretty good for advice.

And most of all keep those pink things away from the blade!

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Lidl Parkside (Scheppach rebadge) Couldn't find it
Titan - Screwfix brand? Couldn't see any Titan Plunge or Circular Saws though, think they're discontinued.

The Lidl Parkside comes on sale only once or twice a year, so you have to look out for it. It is most definitely NOT a Scheppach clone and AFAIK uses a subtly different track

The Titan saw has been variously rebranded Erbauer and Macalister. B&Q have sold some of these in the past (the three brands are house brands of the Kingfisher group who own SFX and B&Q AFAIK). The newer Erbauer design uses a "185mm" saw blade - and BTW 184mm (7-1/4in) is a standard B&D and deWalt size and is readily available, so getting replacement blades won't be an issue. I'd suggest that 185mm is probably a mis-conversion from inches by someone who isn't aware of industry standard saw blade diameters

In the DIY field other notable models I can think of that you didn't include are the Einhell TE-PS (and not TE-CS) from Toolstation (or at least it was at Christmas), etc as well as the well known Triton TTS1400 which utilises a Festool/Makita-profile rail

Your list of trade rated saws is also very incomplete. The readily available plunging track saw models in the UK are:

Festool profile rail

Festool TS55R (160mm)
Festool TS75R (210mm)
Festool TSC55R (160mm, cordless, 1 or 2 batteries @ 18 volt)

Makita SP6000 (165mm)
Makita DSP600/DSP601 (165mm, cordless, 2 batteries @ 18 volt)

Metabo KT18 LXT 66 BL (165mm, 1 battery @ 18 or 36 volt)

Virutex SRI 174T (160mm)

Mafell profile rail

Mafell MT55cc (165mm)
Mafell MT55 18MBL (165mm, cordless, 2 batteries @ 18 volt)

Bosch GKT55 GCE (165mm)
Bosch GKT18V-52 GCE (165mm, cordless, 2 batteries & 18 volt)

Metabo and Mafell share the CAS battery platform

deWalt profile rail

deWalt DWS520KT (165mm)
deWalt DCS520T (165mm, cordless, 1 batteries @ 54 volt Flexvolt) - there is also an 18 volt version of this saw available

But as you say, all high budget. Information supplied for the sake if correctness and completeness

The significance of the rail profile becomes apparent when you need to do multiple full length rips of 8 x 4 sheets. If you don't have a 3 metre rail (and only Festool and Makita make them) you need to join together multiple track or rail sections. The Mafell rail system is better at this, but very expensive, so most manufacturers opt for a copy of either the older (single joining bar) or newer (two joining bar) Festool-style tracksit Single bar systems have problems keeping their straightness moved around much, and whilst they are better, even the two bar rails can be knocked out of straightness if roughly treated.That makes using some of these DIY systems which only offer 700mm rails a bit of an issue. You can straighten a pair of joined 1400mm Festool or Makita rails by holding them upright and delivering a sharp tap on offcut of carpet on the floor with the bottom of the joined rails. I'm not certain that would work as well with 4 x 700mm rail sections joined together. So maybe having a system where the rails come in 1400 or 1500mm lengths is worthwhile after all

As said earlier, though, if you are on a budget and don't need the plunge facility you can always go with a conventional circular saw and just make your own guide

 

[JohnD]

Parkside are Einhell products, rebranded. When I've looked, you can get spares off the Einhell website. it helps if you can read German, and are in a country where import duty will not apply.

 

[JohnD]

Erbauer is (was) introduced by Kingfisher to sell into the reasonable-priced premium brand market. In which case, it ought to be a better product than Titan, and especially Macallister, which seem to be aimed at the cheap, and very cheap, ends of the budget market.

 

[rt18]

So I thought I'd compare the three contenders I'm considering:
Note: depth of cut is without the track. Subtract 5mm for track depth cuts.

Scheppach PL55

Price: £160
Rail: 2×700mm (optionally also a 1.4m single rail for another £55), single bar joiner
Power: 1200W
Blade: 24T TCT (160mm x 20mm x 2.4 thickness)
Speed: 5,500 RPM
Depth of cut: 55mm (at 90°)
Bevel: up to 45°
Cable length: ? m
​

Einhell TE-PS

Price: £90
Rail: None, £40 for 2×1000mm
Power: 1200W
Blade: 48T TCT (165mm x 20mm x 1.6 thickness)
Speed: 5,200 RPM
Depth of cut: 66mm (at 90°) according to Toolstation, but Einhell say 55mm on their website
Bevel: up to 45°
Cable length: 4m
​

Erbauer ERB690CSW

Price: £150
Rail: 2×700mm
Power: 1400W
Blade: (185/184mm x 20mm x ? thickness) - this is a hard blade to find, neither Screwfix nor B&Q (who sell the actual tool) stock them.
Speed: 2,000 - 6,000 RPM
Depth of cut: 67mm (at 90°)
Bevel: up to 48°
Cable length: ? m
​

 

[Deleted member 174758]

OK, a couple of points for you. That quote of 66mm depth of cut out of a 165mm is obviously a bit off. 55mm is pretty much what everyone else quotes so....
...but one point you didn't pick up is that the none depths of cut quoted seem to take into account the 5mm thickness of the track, so the Einhell TE-PS actually has a 50mm depth of cut when used on the track (and considering how awkward these saws are to use off the track why wouldn't you use them on a track?)

In terms of blades, I wouldn't ever buy a saw blade from B&Q (too expensive, very poor range) but you could always buy a 185mm blade from, say, Saxton, for example, or do a search for Trend, deWalt, Bosch, Freud, etc on the net (all good brands, BTW).

As for the bore, if it's too big a quick search on eBay or Amazon will normally turn up an appropriate blade washer (e.g 30mm outside x 20mm bore).

If you think it is difficult, go and see if you can find the blades my big Hilti rip saw uses (230mm diameter x 30mm bore). Can be a bit more awkward...

Fortunately as a DIYer you probably won't need many blades - and remember that TCT blades are relatively cheap to resharpen (saw doctor, sharpening service etc)and you often get 3 to 6 sharpenings put of a medoum priced blade. Environmentally a bit better, too