Confused about solid/engineered boards - esp. bamboo

[SimonH2]

Is it me, or is the trend these days to make everything maintenance proof - i.e. once built there's no 'king way to do anything to a house short of hacking stuff apart in a way that didn't used to be needed I was brought up in houses with traditional floor boards - this is the first time I've had to deal with large format Weetabixchipboard and laminate.

Apart from the task of levelling up the joists, I'm a bit confused about some of the flooring options. Both of us (me and SWMBO) like wood, so it comes down to which type. My brother has bamboo (some of it horizontal, some woven strand) in his house - it seems to be hard wearing and I like the look of it. Alternatively, it'll be engineered boards - possibly oak. Just regular T&G redwood boards aren't out of the question - though I believe that's fairly soft and so will dent/scratch easily.
At present, the uneven floor is 8x2 T&G Weetabixchipboard which I have no plans to relay - I hate these large format boards (especially with click-laminate over the top) that make access near impossible. I had to forego some plumbing and electrical changes when we decorated the kitchen below because I couldn't access under the floor Whatever I use, I intend to put it directly across the joists (400mm centres) as for "traditional" floor boards. Here's where things seem to get interesting ...

I looked in at one of the local timber merchants. They had some nice engineered boards - but all in 1900mm lengths. These did have T&G ends, so I'm assuming that with these, the old rules about joints always being on the joists have gone out of the window ? Some other boards I've seen online have been even shorter - especially bamboo. That seems like a recipe for a lot of wastage.

I'm struggling to find bamboo thicker than 15mm - one site even went as far as saying you can lay bamboo across the joists as long as it's minimum 18mm, while only offering 15mm boards.

Lastly, my plan is to fix most of the floor with secret nailing - but putting several runs in which are screwed. The plan is to cut off the bottom half of the groove, and possibly shave the underside of the tongue a bit, so that the board can be lifted out for access. These can't be t&g ends as that would mean having to lift an entire run - the ends of which would be trapped under the skirting. To get the ends out, I would need to lift a middle board, then the end board can be slid back clear of the skirting before lifting out.

So :
Is my plan sound, or am I just losing the plot (which I think is SWMBO's opinion) ?
Does anyone know of a supplier of 18mm (or thicker) bamboo ?
Anything else I haven't thought about ?

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Both of us (me and SWMBO) like wood, so it comes down to which type. My brother has bamboo (some of it horizontal, some woven strand) in his house - it seems to be hard wearing and I like the look of it.

Mind if I'm a pedant and pointy out that bamboo is technically a grass and not a timber, isn't it?

Is it me, or is the trend these days to make everything maintenance proof...

...I was brought up in houses with traditional floor boards - this is the first time I've had to deal with large format Weetabixchipboard and laminate...

By traditional floorboards do you mean square-edged boards with no tongues and grooves? They come up easily, but because boards always shrink they are always draughty. If you are talking about those new-fangled T&G boards that became so popular in the late Victorian period, then I'm sorry to say that they can also be almost impossible to lift without destroying them. I've wrecked enough of them in that pursuit, as well as having done my fair share of repairs where sparkies and plumbers have "had a go" before me. I'm afraid that the only way to deal with accesses beneath floors is to install framed access panels - which is exactly what is done on some commercial builds

At present, the uneven floor is 8x2 T&G Weetabixchipboard which I have no plans to relay - I hate these large format boards (especially with click-laminate over the top) that make access near impossible. I had to forego some plumbing and electrical changes when we decorated the kitchen below because I couldn't access under the floor Whatever I use, I intend to put it directly across the joists (400mm centres) as for "traditional" floor boards. Here's where things seem to get interesting ...

I looked in at one of the local timber merchants. They had some nice engineered boards - but all in 1900mm lengths. These did have T&G ends, so I'm assuming that with these, the old rules about joints always being on the joists have gone out of the window ? Some other boards I've seen online have been even shorter - especially bamboo. That seems like a recipe for a lot of wastage.

At a fixed length of 1900mm with T&G ends (and presumably sides as well) those boards probably aren't designed to be laid directly on joists unless the manufacturer's data sheet specifically states that they can accommodate 200mm or more of unsupported length. If they are 15mm I doubt that is the case, so before buying and installing something like that make sure you read the manufacturer's data sheets. Thoroughly

Lastly, my plan is to fix most of the floor with secret nailing - but putting several runs in which are screwed. The plan is to cut off the bottom half of the groove, and possibly shave the underside of the tongue a bit, so that the board can be lifted out for access. These can't be t&g ends as that would mean having to lift an entire run - the ends of which would be trapped under the skirting. To get the ends out, I would need to lift a middle board, then the end board can be slid back clear of the skirting before lifting out.

Laid directly onto joists at 15mm I'd be concerned that the floor will subsequently creak at these points. Access hatches need to be properly framed out with a proper hatch in order to work. So TBH, offered your floor done the way you want as a paying job I'd pass. If you need access to the area beneath the floor you need properly framed-out access hatches. These can be home-made or bought-in

 

[Mr Chibs]

I've got a solid oak floor that is 18mm, this sits straight on the joists (no issues), would I go 15mm possibly, but you are probably at the end of the scale, if your joists are spaced nearer, OK.

I've also got solid bamboo floor in bathroom, but its laid across 'proper' floorboards. From memory think it's 18mm, it was from wickes, but I think it's all a bit thinner now than it used to be. You are right, the bamboo is very hard wearing.

I know you don't like the weetabix floor, but it may be better to float the bamboo on top of this floor, failing that you'll probably need to rip up the chipboard and slap down plywood first, I realise this may have a knock-on regard door thresholds etc.

 

[SimonH2]

Mind if I'm a pedant and pointy out that bamboo is technically a grass and not a timber, isn't it?

Yeah, I know - but it's similar in the context we're discussing.

If you are talking about those new-fangled T&G boards that became so popular in the late Victorian period, then I'm sorry to say that they can also be almost impossible to lift without destroying them. I've wrecked enough of them in that pursuit, as well as having done my fair share of repairs where sparkies and plumbers have "had a go" before me.

I think you missed the bit about specifically laying then to allow lifting - cut off the bottom bit of the groove so that side will lift up and the board pulled away from the groove of the next board. And fixed by screws, not nailed.

Otherwise, yes, we have some boards elsewhere in the house that have had the plumber & sparky treatment. For good measure, the original house has concrete joists with a batten on top and bottom - and the battens have been similarly butchered. I found one board supported entirely on the plastic heating pipes.

I've about got the hang of lifting boards - especially after buying a nail puller. Nails out, saw along the tongue (plenty of gap with old boards that have shrunk), lift edge with bolster.

At a fixed length of 1900mm with T&G ends (and presumably sides as well) those boards probably aren't designed to be laid directly on joists unless the manufacturer's data sheet specifically states that they can accommodate 200mm or more of unsupported length. If they are 15mm I doubt that is the case ...

The boards I was looking at locally were 22mm

... so before buying and installing something like that make sure you read the manufacturer's data sheets. Thoroughly

Indeed

Laid directly onto joists at 15mm ...

I'd not even consider that

I know you don't like the weetabix floor, but it may be better to float the bamboo on top of this floor, failing that you'll probably need to rip up the chipboard and slap down plywood first,

It's not specifically the weetabix, it's the "big sheet you can't get under without filling it with holes" problem.
Floating the floor implies click fit which is impossible to lift and re-lay without working in from one end of the room - that is 110% not getting fitted.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I think you missed the bit about specifically laying then to allow lifting - cut off the bottom bit of the groove so that side will lift up and the board pulled away from the groove of the next board. And fixed by screws, not nailed.

The way you lay them to lift them is to build a proper removeable section. Your way risks causing creaks and squeaks over time. Best solution I ever saw was one house with a modern climate control system where all the wiring was in conduit with wall-mounted access panels. It must have cost a fortune to install

I've about got the hang of lifting boards - especially after buying a nail puller. Nails out, saw along the tongue (plenty of gap with old boards that have shrunk), lift edge with bolster.

Consider yourself lucky - many older boards in materials like pitch pine and parana pine become brittle with age and won't lift without snapping despite the use of a nail puller (which can also badly damage the boards)

It's not specifically the weetabix, it's the "big sheet you can't get under without filling it with holes" problem.
Floating the floor implies click fit which is impossible to lift and re-lay without working in from one end of the room - that is 110% not getting fitted.

As I said, on some commercial jobs I've put down glued and screwed chipboard flooring where the architect has specified access panels to certain services. These are obtained by framing out an opening in the floor in a similar way to the way you produce a loft hatch. There are commercial frames made specifically to provide unobtrusive service accesses - they are made in various materials and can accommodate carpet, vinyl, laminate, tile, even paviors depending on the type.

With the possible exception of square edged boards ALL flooring methods are potentially difficult to lift without causing damage. This applies particularly to T&G boards which appeared in the mid- to late-Victorian era and so many houses built from the 1870s to the 1960s had them. The problem isn't confined to chipboard flooring

 

[SimonH2]

OK, comments noted.
We don't mind the odd squeak - we're currently living with a house where you know where everyone is from the squeaks, the worst actually being where the original boards have been replaced with weetabix sheets.
I'm not looking for one or two small hatches. The plan is runs across the whole width of the room (i.e. 1 or 2 boards wide for a full run across the joists). And I'll need 4 such runs : one each end of the room, one in (roughly) the middle, and because of the way the extension is built, another where the kitchen wall is. I don't think framed hatches will work well for that.

But I need to find suitable boards first ...