Covid-19 Inquiry (was meant to be about 'smart' meters)

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By asking me how I thought the Covid-19 Inquiry "was going", EFL:I took a thread about non-communicating 'smart' meters seriously off-topic, and that tangential discussion seems to be continuing. I have therefore shifted it to t his new thread, with the usual caveat that if the mods choose to move it to GD, that I will then stop contributing. In that original thread ...
Every court in the land spends most of its time trying to attribute blame for things which are now history, ....
Indeed - but they are trying to attribute blame (and then punish accordingly) those who have deliberately done things which they knew (or should know) were criminal/'wrong', for reasons that most people would regard as 'bad', and sometimes 'evil' often related to personal gain and/or total disregard for the rights/interests of others and their possessions. I seriously doubt that anyone could sensibly suggest that such was the case of any members of government during the height of the Covid-19 pandemic. In attempting to deal with an unprecedented crisis, they may have been misguided and made many mistakes/errors of judgement, but I feel sure that their intent will have been 'good', rather than deliberately 'bad'.
.... and I believe that that is regarded as helpful in moving forward as a society because of the way in which, albeit far from 100% effectively, it tends to discourage others from doing those things in the future.
As above, we are not talking about deliberate criminal acts, perpetrated for 'bad' reasons by people with no regard for the rights and interests of others. We're talking about people who were presumably doing their best to do what they believed was the best for the UK population, in this unprecedented crisis - and that is not something one would want to discourage. If the pursuit of 'individuals to blame' discouraged anything, it would probably be to discourage very good people from accepting a position in government in the future.
It's a start. Let's try and make it the first, hesitant, step on the path which leads to the situation where future individuals in government when a major crisis arises, and their actions are delinquent and their behaviour egregiously digusting, fear not a telling off from an enquiry but a prison term.
For a start, we do not have 'government by individuals' but, rather, essentially 'government by Cabinet. I find it hard to believe that any individual member of government would do anything that was opposed by the majority of the Cabinet - so actions are really the corporate responsibility of the Cabinet, not of individuals. Again, as above, if you were to threaten individual members of the government with 'prison terms' for making mistakes when they were doing their best to do their job, that could well discourage valuable people from accepting posts in government.
Who was it who demoralised and fragmented the NHS?
Who was it who wrecked the care-home sector?
Who was it who cut local authority funding so deeply that they had no capabilities to respond in areas where local actions and oversight were the best approach?
Who was it who dismantled so much of the apparatus of local authorities that we are now the most centralised economy in Europe and one of the most centralised of any democracy in the world?
Who was it who, basically, wrecked the entire state in a mad ideological pursuit of "market-driven private good, public bad"?
Have you started the election campaign (on behalf of a party other than the one currently in power)?

There are differing political ideologies, and those (millions) who subscribe to one or another sincerely believe (sometimes passionately) that the ideology they subscribe to is the one that is best for members of our society. However, I don't see this has any direct relevance to an Inquiry which appears, at least so far, to be focussing on the actions and behaviour of individuals.
Even "limited value" is greater than the zero value of SFA.
That's what I was implying. Although 'of limited value' in relation to something much bigger like Covid-19, the experience of the 2009 H1N1 'flu was all there was 'in living memory' for those devising the strategic pandemic plan in 2011 -so certainly 'better than nothing'.
 
I doubt the inquiry will come out with anything practical, just wise after the event stuff, that is dependent on politicians being less political, more sceintific and rational, and prepared to invest in the nhs and pandemic planning. Fat chance of any of that. Like post brexhit planning, pandemic planning exposed their general incompetence.

Blup
 
Agreed, and the government failed on both counts.

Blup
 
I reckon that the purpose of the inquiry should be to
A/ Discover what we got right.
B/ Discover what we got wrong.
C/ Discover the extents and limitations of A/ & B/.
Make a plan to get it right (if possible) next time we face a crisis.
Whether it reveals, gross incompetence or evil intent is another thing that might be decided at the ballot box or in court or both.
In short we should learn and improve.
 
Personally I am completely fed up with people moaning about services but at the same same time not wanting to pay more tax, NI and council tax

I'd happily pay a bit more .....

As for the Covid discussions - again I am completely fed up with all the hindsight views .................
 
As for the Covid discussions - again I am completely fed up with all the hindsight views .................
No, they are important, not just for local/central Gov but in our everyday lives. Personally, in business etc etc etc
 
Indeed - but they are trying to attribute blame (and then punish accordingly) those who have deliberately done things which they knew (or should know) were criminal/'wrong', for reasons that most people would regard as 'bad', and sometimes 'evil' often related to personal gain and/or total disregard for the rights/interests of others and their possessions.
I'm sure you meant to say "have allegedly deliberately done things..".

Before that stage though there is an investigation (hopefully unbiased), evidence is gathered, a charge of wrongdoing is levelled, and the strength of the evidence and truth of the charge is then examined in court.

But until the investigation is done, nobody knows if there has been wrongdoing. It's known that something happened - there's property missing, or there's a window broken, or there's a dead body in the street, but possibly none of the hows/whys etc are known.

This inquiry is the investigation. There won't be a trial at the end (I very much doubt), but there will be the conclusions of Baroness Hallet which she draws from the evidence uncovered by the inquiry, and of course the good old court of public opinion.

It's astonishing that you don't think there should be an inquiry.


I seriously doubt that anyone could sensibly suggest that such was the case of any members of government during the height of the Covid-19 pandemic. In attempting to deal with an unprecedented crisis, they may have been misguided and made many mistakes/errors of judgement, but I feel sure that their intent will have been 'good', rather than deliberately 'bad'.
Strongly disagree.

There is enough evidence that procurement rules may have been broken, i.e. evidence that there may have been serious wilful abuse or neglect of the power or responsibilities of the public office held by those who decided to award large PPE contracts to friends, family and party donors to merit investigation to see if anybody did/was likely to have committed Misconduct in Public Office.

It's astonishing that you don't think there should be an inquiry.


As above, we are not talking about deliberate criminal acts, perpetrated for 'bad' reasons by people with no regard for the rights and interests of others.
How do we know that unless we investigate?


We're talking about people who were presumably doing their best to do what they believed was the best for the UK population, in this unprecedented crisis
Are we?

We are talking about people who ran an illegal PPE procurement scheme.

We are talking about people who at the same time that they made rules which resulted in at least one person being fined £10,000 for organising a birthday party, broke their own rules, organised their own birthday parties, laughed about it and then lied to Parliament and lied to the country about it.

And you are so sure that they were all doing their best to do what they believed was the best for the UK population that you don't think there should be an investigation to find out if anything else any of them did might have been influenced by personal greed, or party-political benefit, or a contempt for the law, or a callous disregard for the population's feelings, or sheer **** incompetence.

Astonishing.



- and that is not something one would want to discourage. If the pursuit of 'individuals to blame' discouraged anything, it would probably be to discourage very good people from accepting a position in government in the future.
So what has been discouraging very good people from accepting a position in government to date?


For a start, we do not have 'government by individuals' but, rather, essentially 'government by Cabinet. I find it hard to believe that any individual member of government would do anything that was opposed by the majority of the Cabinet - so actions are really the corporate responsibility of the Cabinet, not of individuals.
No reason why an inquiry cannot inquire into those actions. For instance, can we be sure that no Cabinet minister went along with a decision which he/she believed was wrong in order to keep their job?

Again, as above, if you were to threaten individual members of the government with 'prison terms' for making mistakes when they were doing their best to do their job, that could well discourage valuable people from accepting posts in government.
Well, the possibility of prison terms could only come at the end of a slow change in attitudes to incompetence/recklessness/malfeasance, plus the turkeys voting for Christmas, and I did say that maybe this could be the first step, not that the people being investigated this time should be imprisoned (as appealing as that might be).

And again, as above, there is already sufficient evidence that there were people who were not doing their best to do their job (unless they thought their job was to ensure their personal political survival at any cost, or ruthless self-aggrandisement) that an inquiry to see if anything else they did was not motivated by what they believed was the best for the UK population is fully justified.


Have you started the election campaign (on behalf of a party other than the one currently in power)?
No.


There are differing political ideologies, and those (millions) who subscribe to one or another sincerely believe (sometimes passionately) that the ideology they subscribe to is the one that is best for members of our society. However, I don't see this has any direct relevance to an Inquiry which appears, at least so far, to be focussing on the actions and behaviour of individuals.
Well, firstly, unless you're postulating tablets of stone, any decisions made cannot have been made other than by the actions/behaviour of individuals. Whether in isolation, or as part of a collective-responsibility team, it was all people who did things. And to repeat from earlier, there really is enough evidence of "wrongdoing" in a broad sense to justify looking into how widespread and egregious it was, and what, if anything, can be learned so that in future decisions are not made with an eye to enriching ones friends, or are not made in order to secure one's political survival, or are not made in a spirit of "the rules are for little people, not for us".

Secondly, re competing ideologies, absolutely. But maybe people should have their eyes opened to the true consequences of their ideological choices.

"Module 1 opened on 21 July 2022 and is designated to look into the preparedness for the pandemic. It assesses if the pandemic was properly planned for and whether the UK was adequately ready for that eventuality. This module will touch on the whole system of civil emergencies including resourcing, risk management and pandemic readiness. It will scrutinise government decision-making relating to planning and seek to identify lessons that can be learnt." https://covid19.public-inquiry.uk/structure-of-the-inquiry/

So if the consequences of a "private good, public bad" ideology, the consequences of a "centralised good, local/devolved bad" ideology, the consequences of cutting spending on health and social care and preparedness are that we were inadequately resourced, we were unable to manage risk properly, we were not sufficiently ready, the government were not making the best decisions, then how can it not be right and proper for the public to be able to make fully informed decisions about whether they think the "costs" of implementing their ideological preferences are acceptable?
 
I doubt the inquiry will come out with anything practical, .....
As is presumably apparent, that is also my fear, and a fear in no way diminished by how the Inquiry has been going so far.

There are clearly at least two 'agendas' (reason for) such an inquiry, and different people will attach different degrees of importance (sometimes passionately) to one or both of them:

As we have seen, some want 'accountability' ('witch hunts') - identification, and maybe even punishment, of 'mistakes made by' individual members of government who allegedly 'made mistakes' (or 'errors of judgement') whilst having the UK's first attempt for a century to deal with an unprecedented crisis of the type concerned.​
Others want careful exploration of the decisions made and actions taken by the government (as a whole) in attempts to deal with the pandemic, to identify those decisions/actions which, with the benefit of hindsight, were probably less-than-ideal (or 'worse') , in order to help us to 'do better' if/when we find ourselves facing any similar situation in the future.​

It will be apparent which of these I personally regard as the more important.

.... just wise after the event stuff, .....
As others (and myself) have said, "after the event stuff" ("benefit of hindsight" etc.) is what really matters and which , if considered and dealt with appropriately, offers the prospect that we will be able to 'do better' in response to similar situations in the future. Any 'advancement/improvement', in any field, is dependent upon 'learning by experience' - and a large part of that involves the identification of past less-than-ideal happenings (including things that some would classify as 'mistakes') and deciding 'what would have been better, and hence should be done 'next time'.
.... that is dependent on politicians being less political, more sceintific and rational, and prepared to invest in the nhs and pandemic planning. Fat chance of any of that.
In some sense, the medical and scientific folk had the 'easy' task. They 'merely' had to form an opinion as to what was likely to happen in the absence of interventions, and advise government as to what measures would, in their opinion, result in a very much reduction in the number of 'immediate' infections and deaths (and hence stresses on medical/other resources).

However, as the CMO often pointed out, the much more difficult task (which falls to government) is to consider that advice and balance it against the 'harmful' effects that 'interventions' would have - particularly on the economy and also the general health and well-being of the population. That decision is inevitably a compromise and (although the phrase was rarely heard) necessarily involves the government taking a view on what is "an acceptable number" of immediate deaths as a price to pay for avoiding other harms (longer-term and long-term) to the population.
Like post brexhit planning, pandemic planning exposed their general incompetence.
As I have previously implied, 'general incompetence' is an issue for election campaigning, for the electorate to consider when deciding on the choice of the next government. It is irrelevant to the Covid Inquiry, which should focus specifically on 'incompetence' (or, less pejoratively, 'less-than-deal decisions and actions') in the course of managing the pandemic.

If you are implying that a government of different colour/ideologies would have done any better, there is no certainty of that. They may well have not made some of the same 'mistakes', but they may well have made different ones (in dealing with a situation unprecedented in the experience of any recent government) - and, as for 'political ideologies', I don't think any party could have moved much further 'to the Left' than the Tory government did in relation to some of its actions.

Kind Regards, John
 
Lessons will be learned……….
OIf course they will. As I've just written, advancement/improvement in any field relies of the benefit of past experience - and one of the most important things is to identify past 'mistakes' (even if committed 'in good faith') with a view to avoiding them being repeated in the future.

Kind Regards, John
 
I reckon that the purpose of the inquiry should be to
A/ Discover what we got right.
B/ Discover what we got wrong.
C/ Discover the extents and limitations of A/ & B/.
Make a plan to get it right (if possible) next time we face a crisis.
I agree totally.
Whether it reveals, gross incompetence or evil intent is another thing that might be decided at the ballot box or in court or both. In short we should learn and improve.
Exactly. I think I've just written almost exactly the same. The question of which individuals 'got things right' and which individuals 'got things wrong' is not relevant to your (C), nor tothe planning which will hopefully mean that we would 'do better next time'.

AS far as 'gross incompetence' on the part of individual members of government is concerned, I suppose there is ultimately the possibility of thinking about concepts such as "criminal negligence" - but I suspect it would be very hard to consider that proven if the accused were arguing (probably truthfully) that they "did their best, in good faith" in trying to cope with an essentially unprecedented situation.

Lest someone raise the issue, one comment about "Partygate". I think that's a totally separate issue, which should be of little, if any. concern to the Covid Inquiry, If individual members of government broke laws, or parliamentary rules/regulations, then they should be dealt with accordingly (just like anyone else) - but that has virtually no immediate relevance to the Inquiry. Had the 'rule-breaking' by members of government been known about at thee time, it could have been argued as being detrimental to the attempt to get the population to comply with the rules/restrictions - but, other than that (which didn't really happen), it has no relevance to management of pandemics, past or future.

Kind Regards, John
 
Personally I am completely fed up with people moaning about services but at the same same time not wanting to pay more tax, NI and council tax I'd happily pay a bit more .....
In a sense I agree. Problems of the NHS, social care etc. etc. could be dramatically reduced if the population were prepared to pay a lot more (in relation to all the taxes you mention, and more).

However, we live in a democracy, and another name for 'the population' is 'the electorate' - and the fact seems to be that, in the (many!) decades of my life to date, the ('democratic') wishes of that electorate only rarely have resulted in election of a government that would even consider such an approach as you suggest (and even more rarely has any such government lasted very long)..
As for the Covid discussions - again I am completely fed up with all the hindsight views .................
As I keep saying, "hindsight views" are crucial to attempts to enable us to 'do better next time', just as they are in virtually every field of life.
 
In Germany they are horrified that we expect charity to do what the state doesn't, here we horrified that the German state pays for stuff we raise through charity.

Blup
 
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