Cracked wall/pointing advice please!!

[Brian Charles]

Thanks so much in advance for any help! We have just received concerns from a survey about wall movement in an Edwardian house. They did make comment that this is a common finding but raised specific concern about two points - 1) failing window arch with cracked pointing with possible ongoing movement 2) some movement with cracked air tile on corner of a front bay images attached). Can anyone offer any advice at all whether they would a) avoid like the plague 2) chill out its normal or 3) proceed with caution and follow surveyor advice?! He has recommended repointing of whole area around the window and underpinning of the front bay window - anyone have any kind of very very rough price range of what this might cost?! Im guessing significant as he advised that agreed price was too high. Thank you so much for any rough pointing in the right direction (no pun intended....)

 

[catlad]

Probably caused by the window fitters
I wouldn't worry to much, you could get crack stitching rods put
in when you re-point it.

 

[Brian Charles]

Thank you for the suggestion!!
Any idea what very rough guesstimate range I would be looking at to underpin front room bay window (around 2.8m wide?)
Thanks again!

 

[^woody^]

I wouldn't worry to much, you could get crack stitching rods put
in when you re-point it.

I'd worry a bit more than that. The arches are no longer functioning and the whole panel may have moved. Stitching rods are not a remedy for this problem unless designed to form a lintel, and further investigation into the potential panel movement might be necessary.

 

[vinn]

As above - the whole brickwork panel above the central (LH) opening is dropping and a min 10mm crack has opened up higher up the gable.

It looks as though the arches, & a crack, have been repointed in the past, & further bits of pointing here & there - perhaps as a hopeful remedial measure?
Have you examined the other side/interior of the gable - floors, skirtings, bumps in the decorations etc?

Do you mean an air brick instead of "air tile"?
I can see what might be a cracked stretcher brick, and repointing thats failing but no air brick.
A photo of the whole bay would be necessary for a reasonable comment.

 

[Doggit]

I think it's a bit on the serious side, but that doesn't mean it's not manageable; but it does need a more thorough investigation if you're going to purchase it. We could do with a few wider pictures though

You need to find out if there's been an subsidence in the neighbouring properties; and you need to contact a couple of companies that deal with underpinning, and get a quote to help in the negotiations.

The first picture shows the arch dropping to the left, and with the crack in the wall further to the left suggest there could be movement in that direction, so there may be more underpinning required. Catlad might be right in that some of the damage has been caused when the DG windows were fitted, as a lot didn't put in an inner lintel when they took the old sash cord windows out, but that would mean problems above the arch, not to the side of it, and there would be evidence inside as well. You'd need to put a strong boy under the arch, cut out the crack at the left of the arch, and then repoint with a few bits of slate jammed in the crack whilst you repoint.

Crack stitching rods will work in picture 2, but picture 1 shows broken bricks which suggest movement, so that side needs further investigation.

 

[Brian Charles]

Sorry yes air brick! Ive attached a couple more photos - one of the brickwork above the window arch and the second of the bay window.
The surveyor was very thorough and he couldnt have been clearer in that in his opinion there is ongoing movement in that brickwork on the side wall above the arch. Im checking with him but I assume that has something to do with the pattern and size of the cracks.
In terms of the front bay window, he said there is the broken air brick and clear sagging. His suspicion was leakage from that down pipe has potentially caused instability in that area and needs underpinning work - exacerbated by the fact these properties tend to have shallower foundations in this front bay area. Even though it would only be local underpinning required, does this still attract the same insurance and resale concerns as main house underpinning? Seems to be such a red flag word to some people for whatever reason! Thanks for all the massively helpful advice - I am gutted but looking more and more of a risky buy!

 

[Doggit]

Thanks for those Brian. The bay definitely need underpinning, and it'll be debatable as to whether to underpin, or remove the bay, dig the foundations deeper, and then rebuild it. Most bays tend to be a single skin wall, so rebuilding it would allow you to insulate it at the same time.

Exactly what did the surveyor say about the crack coming down from the roof line, and is it by any chance around the corner from the bay.

 

[^woody^]

The brickwork on that bay has moved before the window was installed. If the window is still fixed, and no gaps below it, then the bay may well have stopped moving now, and is not a significant issue. Lots of houses move, move and stop, move up and down or keep moving one way. But movement itself is not a probelm until it becomes a problem.

Alternatively, the work required to stabilise a bay is relatively simple and not costly.

Cause of cracks to the walls need to be determined. But generally, if the cracks are not showing on the inside, then foundation movement is less likely, and are easily repairable. They are not related to the roof, so the cause is either foundations or the arches, or a bit of both

Don't let a house you like go just because it needs some work. Find out what work, and either allow for it in the offer price, or if minor just pay for the work yourself. Just from those limited photos, it looks a nice house.

 

[Brian Charles]

Thanks for those Brian. The bay definitely need underpinning, and it'll be debatable as to whether to underpin, or remove the bay, dig the foundations deeper, and then rebuild it. Most bays tend to be a single skin wall, so rebuilding it would allow you to insulate it at the same time.

Exactly what did the surveyor say about the crack coming down from the roof line, and is it by any chance around the corner from the bay.

Thanks - sounds ominous! here was the comment about the roof line (this is the house rear, away from the bay, doesnt appear to go around the corner)

"There are two areas where some noticeable movement has occurred and this appears to be on going and needs to be investigated further. On the rear elevation , over the rear bedroom window there is some window arch failure. There is some evident cracking in brick work around and above the window arch. Though quite common in properties of this age, cracked pointing needs to be thoroughly raked out and replaced in the short term"

He feels the movement is ongoing due to the size of the cracks and this is obviously a big concern

 

[Doggit]

The thanks was for the pictures Brian. Okay, the surveyor is pretty much in accordance with what we suspect, so if you're going to go ahead with the purchase, you need it at a price to reflect the issues, and the hassle.

If there is subsidence, then you can claim on the insurance, so you need to make sure that the vendor has it, and you need to be blunt and ask them why they haven't dealt with something so obvious, and why they're pricing the property so high in the current situation. There'll be a £1K excess for any subsidence claim, so you'd want that off them, but I think that your insurance company would then claim off of his insurance company for the cost of any work done. Talk to your insurance company, and to your solicitor about this.

You're going to need some blunt talking with the vendor to get this resolved, and his response will then help you decide whether you should go ahead. You need a couple of builder in to asses the costs, and then negotiate hard with him.

 

[stuart45]

I don't think I've ever worked on a job where a single storey bay was underpinned, as it's normally much easier to take it out and dig new footings and rebuild the brickwork.

 

[catlad]

Thats the only way surly.

 

[Brian Charles]

I don't think I've ever worked on a job where a single storey bay was underpinned, as it's normally much easier to take it out and dig new footings and rebuild the brickwork.

Thank you - Do you have any idea of what price range Id be looking at for this? Obviously If going ahead I will get someone in to give an accurate quote but just looking for some ballpark...?

 

[Brian Charles]

The brickwork on that bay has moved before the window was installed. If the window is still fixed, and no gaps below it, then the bay may well have stopped moving now, and is not a significant issue. Lots of houses move, move and stop, move up and down or keep moving one way. But movement itself is not a probelm until it becomes a problem.

Alternatively, the work required to stabilise a bay is relatively simple and not costly.

Cause of cracks to the walls need to be determined. But generally, if the cracks are not showing on the inside, then foundation movement is less likely, and are easily repairable. They are not related to the roof, so the cause is either foundations or the arches, or a bit of both

Don't let a house you like go just because it needs some work. Find out what work, and either allow for it in the offer price, or if minor just pay for the work yourself. Just from those limited photos, it looks a nice house.

Thanks Woody - I appreciate the honesty. A bit of work doesn't concern me but to be honest after a lot of work on our old place we decided just to get somewhere ready to live and dont really have the desire/time for another project. There is a lot that has been shown up - not only the cracks needing further investigation/work, insurance premiums and the sagging bay potentially needing rebuilding but there are holes in the slate roof that all needs replacing, fascias and soffits that have rot, gutters that need replacing and a defective flat roof on extension that is defective with felt bubbling from pooled water. I have no idea how much is reasonable to negotiate off for all the above but the agreed price so far was actually on the high end of prices for this area based on that it was ready to move in to. I cant imagine how further negotiation is going to go but id guesstimate a fair reduction would be in the region of 30-40k? (4 bed terraced)