Crumbling chipboard

[SimonH2]

One of our lasses asked me to look at the floor in her spare room - there's been a hole in one place for a while which they put a sheet of board over, now another hole has appeared :

It's crumbly round the hole and easy to break more bits off - I can literally grab the edge of the board with one hand and pull more off it. It feels like two layers with nothing substantial in the middle which would make it quite weak to start with - very different to the high density flooring chipboard I'm more used to. While there are some water marks, I don't think that's particularly the problem. Also, from the bit I was able to see pulling the carpet up at one end, it's not 2'x8' sheets as it's definitely more than 2' in both directions to a join. I'm wondering if it's the wrong sort of chipboard to start with.
I'm thinking the only proper fix here is to rip the lot up (it'll keep her in firewood and kindling for a while ) and replace it with something else. As it happens, I'm planning to remove the Caberboard in our lounge to replace it with "proper" boards and level everything up - but my plans were that it'll be a while before I do that. May have to bring that job forward. Either that, or just shell out for new boards for her house.

I guess I already know the answer - but sometimes you just have to let off some steam when you've had your fill of fixing stuff that could have been done right in the first place.

 

[Wayners]

The water stains? Know what caused them

 

[SimonH2]

Probably spilt drinks or similar

 

[big-all]

i could be miles out but that looks like just basic 12mm chipboard
is there joins at 6ft and 2ft ??

 

[Wayners]

If that is lath and plaster ceiling maybe vac and pva to strengthen then fill void with insulation before new floor goes down.

Maybe drinks spilt then stood on caused damage to floor

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Is that board at least 18mm thick? If not, then it isn't flooring grade chipboard. Is the last 2 or 3mm below the surface on each face denser than the core? (FG chip should be denser at the the surfaces with finer material and it is very obvious visually). Older FG chip used to come in 8 x 4ft sheets with square edges, so no T&G. From your description it sounds as though shipping case chipboard may have been used - horrible weak stuff. It takes a lot of soaking to weaken FG chip, so I doubt that a few glasses of vino knocked over would weaken it

 

[JohnD]

Did it break under the leg of a bed? Fairly common.

I may have mentioned before that chipboard is an awful material. Rip it up and throw it on the tip.

Ply is much better.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Ply is much better.

Especially that wonderful, all pervasive Chinese stuff which flexes and delaminates as soon as you cut it.

There is chipboard, then there is chipboard. 18 or 22mm P5 T&G chipboard (comes in 2400 x 600) outperforms cheap ply when correctly installed

 

[opps]

Especially that wonderful, all pervasive Chinese stuff which flexes and delaminates as soon as you cut it.

There is chipboard, then there is chipboard. 18 or 22mm P5 T&G chipboard (comes in 2400 x 600) outperforms cheap ply when correctly installed

I honestly didn't know that. When you say "cheap ply" what do you mean by "cheap".

Personally, I have never experienced ply delaminating when I cut it. How cheap is the stuff that does that? And why would any self respecting supplier sell it?.. I guess my last question is rhetorical.

 

[SimonH2]

Is the last 2 or 3mm below the surface on each face denser than the core?

Very much so - as I mentioned, the core is so soft I could pull more off by hand, with the top and bottom coming off in separate layers.

From your description it sounds as though shipping case chipboard may have been used

I was thinking along those lines.

Did it break under the leg of a bed?

That particular hole is in the doorway, the other (older) hole wasn't under a bed leg.

I may have mentioned before that chipboard is an awful material. Rip it up and throw it on the tip.

Yes, the plan is to rip it up - but she has an open fire so it'll at least do something useful rather than going to the tip

Personally, I'm a bit old fashioned and my preference is for "proper" floorboards - though the new fangled T&G version. Unfortunately, timing doesn't work out to re-use the chipboard (Caberboard) I'll be pulling up off our lounge floor, so I'll be having to fork out for whatever I put down.

I suspect there are other "interesting" things we'll find in her house over time

Simon

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Personally, I have never experienced ply delaminating when I cut it.

Lucky you, then! Over the last 10 years the quality of construction plywood (and by that I mean hardwood plywood NOT softwood shuttering ply) has progressively decreased. I've seen far too much plywood which has massive voids, oversized repairs, lumps, bumps and which delaminates at the first sign of weather despite being graded for exterior use. All the rubbish has been of Chinese origin. When I have seen good quality construction plywood it has often been Malaysian or Indonesian. Brazilian ply used to be excellent quality, but ptesumably Bolsonaro's mates having now pretty much clear felled a lot of the Amazon basin (and not replanted), that has gone. African ply has pretty much disappeared as well due to over exploitation

How cheap is the stuff that does that? And why would any self respecting supplier sell it?

It isn't cheap in money terms - just in quality.The fact is that most hardwood plywood of the type John refers to is a thing of the past and us expensive against P5 chipboard or OSB.

There is another reason for eschewing tropical hardwood plywood, and that is environmental. A lot of tropical hardwood plywood comes as the result of logging (some illegal) in first growth tropical rain forests - this includes plywood manufactured in China from imported timbet boles. It then has to be brought to the UK by ship (go look up bunker oil and its' effect on the environment). Against that chipboard and OSB are made in the UK and EU mostly from renewable resources (local softwood stands and in the case of chipboard a percentage of recycled content). Having been on my knees over a few decades installing it I'd say that the T&G chipboard of today is a far better product that the 8 x 4ft chipboard if the 70s or 80s - especially if installed properly (glued to the joists, glued at the tongues, correct glue used, joints tapped up tight and screwed to the joists) and every time a lockie tells me otherwise I'll disagree with them

 

[Deleted member 174758]

That particular hole is in the doorway, the other (older) hole wasn't under a bed leg.

The other possibilty I have wondered about is whether or not the failure is at an unsupported joint

...the plan is to rip it up - but she has an open fire so it'll at least do something useful rather than going to the tip

From another woodburner owner - man made boards all contain copious quantities of resin glues which creates lots of tar and soot deposits in chimneys and flues - worse even than softwood. In addition the results if combustion are trace elements of toxic chemicals. So be prepared for complaints from the neighbours (possibly even the council) ig you burn a lot and the need to sweep the flue early on. When we had a workshop we were permitted to burn mixed timber waste, but our Talbot boiler featured an "afterburner" (sensor array with a secondary gas burner to ensure complete combustion) which I've never seen on a domestic unit.

Personally, I'm a bit old fashioned and my preference is for "proper" floorboards - though the new fangled T&G version. Unfortunately, timing doesn't work out to re-use the chipboard (Caberboard) I'll be pulling up off our lounge floor, so I'll be having to fork out for whatever I put down.

Never heard of softwood T&G being called "new fangled" - match plane sets (i.e. hand planes) were in common use on better quality jobs by the 18th century, four sided planer moulders (powered machines) pre-date Stephenson's "Rocket" (1829) although widespread uptake of the machinery was really until the 1860s to 1870s. So maybe not so new after all!

BTW, if your Caberdecor was glued and screwed (as it should have been) it won't come up without a fight!

I suspect there are other "interesting" things we'll find in her house over time

Of that I have no doubt. i live in a Victorian "artisan's dwelling" (estate agent speak for terraced house) and even without all the intermediate bodges, we've found a few genuine examples of original Jerry building. The Victorians did know a thing or two about corner cutting.

 

[big-all]

round here the ply last time i bought it about 5 years ago was 5.5 and 11.5 mm with savings fully taken off the external layers and the way i noticed this was i made a table top from ply a rebate into 4x1[95x21mm] and expecting to pad out the bottom flush with something like 9mm txg found the ply was exactly right


and yes the first hint off water turns to modern art

 

[SimonH2]

Never heard of softwood T&G being called "new fangled" - match plane sets (i.e. hand planes) were in common use on better quality jobs by the 18th century, four sided planer moulders (powered machines) pre-date Stephenson's "Rocket" (1829) although widespread uptake of the machinery was really until the 1860s to 1870s. So maybe not so new after all!

It was a bit tongue in cheek after your post "... If you are talking about those new-fangled T&G boards that became so popular in the late Victorian period ..."

BTW, if your Caberdecor was glued and screwed (as it should have been) it won't come up without a fight!

It wasn't, it does - well apart from having to free up something to allow the joints to be disengaged as it was fitted before plastering.

From another woodburner owner - man made boards all contain copious quantities of resin glues which creates lots of tar and soot deposits in chimneys and flues - worse even than softwood.

It'll probably get used for kindling to get the "not as easy to light as real coal" smokeless stuff going, so not in large quantities at a time.

When we had a workshop we were permitted to burn mixed timber waste, but our Talbot boiler featured an "afterburner" (sensor array with a secondary gas burner to ensure complete combustion) which I've never seen on a domestic unit.

A friend of a friend has a workshop which seems to be a bit of a social hub for bikers at times. Has a pot belly stove for heating. Lets just say, at night when it's dark and no-one can see the smoke, all sorts of rubbish gets disposed of - including cut up tyres (can get the flue pipe glowing red with those)