DIY vs Professional

[Not An Electrician]

1st, I am NOT a qualified electrician. But as well as finding lots of good advice here - I have come across some interesting debates when DIY'ers (like me) ask about how to do something. Sometimes in the process we amateurs demonstrate a really dangerous lack of knowledge - which is no doubt why the regulations restrict who can do electrical work. Having said all that, I'd like to ask what is the right way to work given the reality (see below) which often leads to DIY'ers being tempted to TRY and do some work - hopefully properly if they can find the right advice.

Some background, back when it was still legal I did my own electrical work having been taught as a teenager by my father who was trained as an electrician and radio engineer in the RAF. I then updated myself with the reference material I could find. Having read all I could and taken advice, I wired my own first house before we moved in. I also had my work informally checked by a friend who was a trained electrician. Now of course I can't do that - which I accept. A few years later I then repeated that on my second home - it was still legal. I only did minor work on my current house, and then the regulations changed.

Like some other DIYers on here I have used fully qualified Electricians for several medium sized building and related electrical projects. Some work has been very good, but some, by electricians working for highly reputable contractors has been very poor - including work to replace a consumer unit 10 years ago which was shocking (in both senses of the word).

I am now helping my daughter buy and renovate her 1st home. The house is empty during the renovations. Money is tight but when I did a visual inspection of what was on the face of it a relatively up to date installation (not Amendment 3 compliant though) with my limited knowledge I found dozens of things I consider basic faults many of which appear to pre-date the most recent inspection certificate! None of these faults was highlighted by the general building survey (which glibly says "all appears to be in good order") and there is no requirement for new homeowners to re-test. It wasn't hard to find missing earth sleeving, and some missing earths, missing grommets, broken patress boxes, a flex used to connect a 32amp ring main junction box under the floor to a fused spur for a recently installed central boiler etc etc.!

So given the scale of the issues and the other building work I faced a dilemma. a) we couldn't afford to pay an Electrician to do everything that was needed, b) the Electrician I do trust was not available in time and c) I have doubts about quality of some work by others - the bottom line is, given the regime of self inspection how do I know it's really fit for purpose? Apologies to all you thorough, professional and careful electricians - sadly my experience is that not everyone is as diligent as they could be. And in the end, who is more motivated to complete a safe installation a Dad or a paid contractor - and of course that ignores capability!!

Faced with this dilemma I spent a great deal of time on research - initially to find whether I could undertake the work IF I could find someone to test and certify it. Then to get sufficient knowledge to do the work so it had a chance of passing inspection. I eventually found a specialist Part P inspection firm and appointed them with the agreement of Building Control.

I then bought and read the latest wiring regs, and the Site Guide and Inspection and Certification Guide. I watched as many training videos as a I could - covering all sorts from basics to how to carry out Continuity of Conductors and Insulation Resistance tests - so I could be satisfied things were in good order before getting the professional inspector in. Also to make an informed decision on whether it was safe to re-use the circuits I plan to retain.

I downloaded all the inspection forms so I also knew what would be checked and what extra documentation I should have ready. I read forums on specifics that I wasn't sure of and was amused to find the wide range of areas where there are multiple opinions: e.g. Do I need a fused spur mounted above the counter for each kitchen appliance? Can I mount a supply to a dishwasher on a permanently installed kitchen base unit under a sink? Should I cross bond an isolated section of 3 x Central heating radiators connected by copper pipework when both ends of the supply to them is in plastic?

Then I set about doing a detailed Installation design - from basics such as a circuit list with rating and number of sockets etc, to the exact spec of consumer unit, zonal layout of the bathrooms and IPx4 rating of bathroom fittings. For the consumer unit, I settled on a 5+5+2 set-up so the Fire Detection system could be isolated from the RCDs and then used the other "unprotected" circuit to host an RCBO for a waterproof Garden socket. I documented how the MCB's and RCBO's should be arranged, and checked the spec for an Amendment 3, 100amp Isolation switch from the incoming tails before they get to the consumer unit.

Then it was on to buying in all the kit and getting on with first fix. I taught my daughter and son-in law how to cut in all the locations for boxes in correct locations and how to work through each cable run. Then a check of the cable and carefully run it in the pre-determined cable runs and clip it securely in place. Then followed my own visual inspection - grommets in place, no nicks or damage to cable, all runs in safe locations so that everything was ready for my first fix inspection.

The first inspection went well, so, so far so good - almost all to spec (apart from two cables in an incomplete riser that can't be clipped until some pipework is complete). Also got good advice from the Inspection engineer - and recommendation to watch the Wylex youtube on the changed Consumer Unit installation process - self sealing grommets plus trunking to increase fire protection and making sure to run both tails through a single gland etc.

So next will be second fix and my own testing of all the (disconnected) circuits with a hired multi-function tester. And then the moment of truth - the final test and inspection. I'm drawing the line at doing tests 3&4 at the moment and will leave to the professional.

This is NOT a lazy option - it has required many hours of work - on top of having gained experience doing quite a lot of electrical work when it was still legal. But, I get it, that is NOT the same as all those years of going to college and getting qualified. My study has been limited to these specific requirement. There is a risk I may have not thought of something I should have. I am NOT trying to do my own Part P testing - I WANT someone qualified to check it all and I am happy to pay a fairly significant fee for doing so. That fee is viable for a bigger project but would not be economic for a few sockets or installation of a single circuit. And remember, that the firm I am using to do the inspections and testing, do this all day every day mostly checking work done by "unqualified" installers working for councils and similar. It's not just DIY'ers like me who benefit from independent inspection and testing - is it?

So what do people think? Will I pass the inspection? Should I pass it? Is it OK for unqualified people to do what I have and to some extent really on a third party to inspect and test?

 

[JohnW2]

Some background, back when it was still legal I did my own electrical work .... A few years later I then repeated that on my second home - it was still legal. .....

As I am sure you know, it is 'legal' for anyone (qualified or not) to undertake any electrical work, provided they are competent. As you also clearly k now, the only issue is that a few things have to be 'notified' to the local authority's Building Control - although, if you are in England, that is now very few things (basically just replacing a CU, installing 'new circuits' (and there's a lot of debate about what that means!), and work in the 'zones' of a bathroom).

If, as seems to be the case, you feel that you are (or will be) 'competent, then one option would be to get a self-certifying ('registered') electrician to undertake (and notify) just the 'notifiable' bits and do the rest yourself. The one difficult are is in relation to undertaking proper testing of what you have done, since not many non-electricians have the appropriate kit. However, you could ask an electrician to do that for you, and there is essentially no bureaucracy associated with that.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Primarily, it is not illegal for you to do electrical work.
It's just that some work (very little now in England) is notifiable to the Local Authority.

If your friend is registered to self-certify, which really means self-notify, then there is nothing to prevent you being supervised by him so that he is willing and able to sign the certificates - BUT it is no good calling on him when everything is finished.

Quick points:
Nothing wrong with using flex.
The On-Site Guide is rubbish.
Fused Connection Units (the cable is the spur) above worktops are not a requirement.
No such thing as cross-bonding. Supplementary bonding in bathrooms etc. is dependent on measurements but if supplied by plastic then very unlikely to be required.
Sockets under sinks are allowed.

 

[Not An Electrician]

Thanks to both for your comments. I understand its not illegal for me to do most of the work. The question is, is it safe and how do I make sure its properly tested?

Most electricians, understandably, won't certify installations they haven't completed. My post was partly in response to some reactions to questions on here which could be summarised by "its NEVER OK for unqualified electricians to do electrical work".

My points about (thanks for the correction) "Supplementary bonding", location of fused spurs etc is that if you read what's on many forum there is heated debate about what is considered standard practice - and this is often repeated as Gospel when in fact, as you confirm it is often not "required". Finally, I explained the flex poorly problem: They had used a piece of "13amp" (1mm I think) flex to SUPPLY the power to a fused spur outlet from a 32amp circuit with no protection. The fused outlet then reasonably also had a flex to the boiler. Both were visible to the surveyor and the erroneous one ignored. I can only assume the gas safe installer (British Gas I suspect) couldn't be bothered to challenge this.

 

[333rocky333]

My post was partly in response to some reactions to questions on here which could be summarised by "its NEVER OK for unqualified electricians to do electrical work".

I disagree, can you link to any of these posts, as a diy site people are often encouraged to do it and as in this post, quite often posters like your self have been told they can do it when they have themselves thought it was illegal.
It is often pointed out, that it can work out more expensive to DIY but if people are happy to pay the building fees etc, they are often advised the best way, regarding it appears within there grasp

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks to both for your comments. I understand its not illegal for me to do most of the work. The question is, is it safe and how do I make sure its properly tested?

As I said, you could get an electrician to inspect and test the work you had done - e.g. you could commission an EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report), and that doesn't involve any considerations of who did the work. If you have a relationship with a friendly electrician, you might be able to get advice whilst you are doing the work, too.

Most electricians, understandably, won't certify installations they haven't completed.

They can't, without lying, certify that they have designed and installed ('constructed') the work if they haven't - but, as above, they can certainly be asked to inspect and test anyone's work.

My post was partly in response to some reactions to questions on here which could be summarised by "its NEVER OK for unqualified electricians to do electrical work".

It is only a very small number of participants who have ever taken that approach, although many of us will say something about an individual who is clearlynot competent (or safe) to do what (s)he proposes. The most common sticking point is the inability of most DIYers to undertake proper testing (and any electrical work requires that). It is, after all, a DIY forum, so it is hard to understand why those who feel that DIY electrical work is never OK should choose to participate!

Kind Regards, John

 

[John D v2.0]

They had used a piece of "13amp" (1mm I think) flex to SUPPLY the power to a fused spur outlet from a 32amp circuit with no protection.

That's likely to be OK depending on length, as you only need overload and fault protection. The fault protection is depending on the live and earth resistances including the supply. Should be 5x the rated current of the type b MCB at 230v*0.95.
The overload protection is provided by the fcu which presumably has a fuse under 13a.

 

[SimonH2]

I have come across some interesting debates

That's a polite way of putting it
From what you describe, you sound like you're competent to do the work - and you've even gone as far as making the proper test gear available to your (by hiring it). BTW - it's worth keeping an eye on eBay as there are sometimes some very good deals on test gear. A few years ago, a test equipment house had a batch of MFTs for sale at a very good price, freshly calibrated - it was something like £100 plus the cost of a set of leads, probably less than hiring a couple of times.
From the sound of it, I'd guess that you have probably been trained to work to much better standards than many professional electricians. Your biggest stumbling block will be that the training wasn't for current wiring standards - which it sounds like you've put a lot of effort into rectifying.

Worth checking your local council's website for their Building Control fees. Ours charge a fixed fee of about £150 or £225 for "minor electrical works" depending on whether you can supply acceptable test results or they need to pay a sparky to test/inspect it. I gather some charge up to £400 So there's an option to do all the non-notifiable work, and do a building control application for the notifiable works.

Or as suggested, you can do most of the work yourself, and ask your registered friend to do the notifiable work and notify it via his scheme. Provided he agrees in advance, and "supervises" you, then you can actually do the work - that's what pretty well every non-trivial job involves. In a typical house wire, there will be several guys doing the work (maybe including apprentices with little skill/knowledge) and at the end one person will sign the paperwork.

 

[ericmark]

As an electrician I could wire a house safely, however since I am now retired there are some problems.
1) Test equipment, mine is old and not in calibration, in real terms all I need to do is retest some know work, and see the readings are the same, however I also need to convince the LABC that my equipment is OK, so in real terms looking at a few hundred pounds to get useable test equipment.
2) I have to convince the LABC that I can do the job. I found having a C&G2391 was not good enough, they did allow me after telling them I had a degree.
3) Although the LABC may allow me to wire it all up, there is also the insurance, and any prospective buyers, unless I take out insurance before I start, in 9 years time some one could be asking me to pay out because of an error.

One thing to remember as an electrician I can't claim I don't know, so any faults land firmly at my feet, the Emma Shaw case shows how if the person doing the work is known not to have the skill, then the person allowing him to do the job is at fault, not the person who did the job wrong. So the LABC inspector does not really have a problem with me, if it all goes wrong I will carry the can, not him. However if he allows some one without the skill to do the work, if it goes wrong, he carries the can. As a result they are not keen on DIY work, as they could end up in court.

The other point is I would need to buy new books to ensure I am following current regulations. So it will cost me around the £500 mark to get the test equipment, and books, and LABC charges to be able to DIY, it could cost more.

So a rewire will cost me around the £3000 mark, of that likely a £1000 of parts so in real terms they are charging me £2000 for two men for 5 days, so take the £500 from that and I am paying £1500 for them to do the work. If they do the job it will take a week, but if I do the job, it will likely take me a month, I no longer have wall chasers and threading rods, I don't even have an SDS drill any more.

So is it worth it? I considered I just did not have the time to rewire my mothers house before she came out of hospital, so even as an electrician I got a firm in to do the work.

It is often the non electrical bits that trip you up, with the wet room which I did wire, I was told I must have an extractor fan, not a clue why, there is an opening window, but the LABC insisted, however it is wired to come on with the lights, if windows did not open then that is not permitted. Also there is no vent into the room, so since there are two open flue fires, I should not really fit a simple extractor fan, it should have been a heat recovery unit, one reason why I fitted the fan and did not object.

I know the 1/3 rule on drilling beams, however that is not in BS7671 in fact I don't know where the rule is sited. Some so called rules seem daft, I can see you should not notch a beam but drill a hole, but when the notch is already there why not use it? However told that LABC will pick you up on it.

The problem is these errors can be expensive, having to reinforce a beam because you cut a notch instead of drilling a hole, costs time and money. On the wet room the LABC inspector never returned to site to inspect my work, I sent in the installation certificate and then a completion certificate arrived in the post, however with an unskilled person doing the work that is not likely to happen. And every time the installation fails, the LABC can charge you again for the independent inspectors to re-inspect and test.

As the work involved reduces so the DIY cost v Professional cost draw together, and as you hit the £1000 mark it becomes cheaper to get some one in, than hire the equipment to test yourself. There is only one way where DIY becomes cheaper, and that is simply don't test and inspect. And that is exactly what happens, including qualified electricians working at home, we simply take a chance. And 99 times out of 100 we get away with it.

 

[scousespark]

Reading the first post, it seems the OP has undertaken a CU change along with a partial rewire.
That's notifiable but there was no mention of notification which should be done before work starts.

I'm confused as to why the OP has hired a tester when a 3rd party firm has been hired and why he is "leaving tests and 4 to the professionals". I get suspicious as soon as I see a post saying my friend is a registered electrician but he can't do this job because (fill in the blanks) so I will ask for advice in this forum.

Would any electrician tell a diyer to watch a YouTube video to see how to change a CU? The first video I found last 4 minutes and 43 seconds.

Simon is wrong to say this guy has been trained to higher level than most electricians. He has read up more than most diyers.

 

[SimonH2]

Simon is wrong to say this guy has been trained to higher level than most electricians. He has read up more than most diyers.

I didn't say that (I didn't say "have", I said "From the sound of it, I'd guess that you have"), but what you are misreading was a reference to

... having been taught as a teenager by my father who was trained as an electrician and radio engineer in the RAF. I then updated myself with the reference material I could find ...

Knowing how the forces tend to work, I can't help thinking that he's probably better trained than many professionals - especially the "5 day wonders".
However, that training will have been to a mix of RAF and civvie standards of the day - hence my comment about it not being to current standards.

 

[Not An Electrician]

Thanks to everyone and to ericmark - some good points. I haven't included everything in the post - I thought it was too long anyway!

I started out proposing NOT to replace the consumer unit mostly because it's notifiable. However, having found a reputable Inspection and Test firm, I put them in contact with the private Building Control firm I am using for all the work and checked that everyone was OK with the setup. The advice on the consumer unit followed a detailed discussion and my question to him - "I'm not sure whether to replace the consumer unit what do you think" - his advice based on what we discussed, the state of the first fix installation was that I could and should and then to walk me through the changes to consumer unit installation that came in with Amendment 3. Agreed, one 5 minute video isn't enough! But there are many high quality training videos (some a bit turgid some excellent) which together convinced me that it was very doable.

On costs - ericmark is correct, books and tools etc are expensive but ebay and Amazon Market mean that the total spend on the books and regs I needed is under £100. My estimate for the electrical work for a 4 bedroom, 3 bathroom house with a new kitchen and new consumer unit is around £6,500. Following the DIY and Partp inspection route: the Electrical kit is going to cost around £700, The inspection cost will be £300 (based on 2x1st fix inspections due to phasing of the building work and 1 x final fix). With books and tools I reckon the total cost is between £1200 and £1300 with a saving of over £5,000.

I have a reasonable tool kit and am investing in some new tools (18v multi-tool chasers are very reasonable now) and I will let my daughter and son in law keep some of these so that they have a tool kit.

Cable runs etc: In designing the changes to the house I've created a vertical sub-floor to roof void, and also side-side void above the new main roof beam - so all main cabling runs can be run easily run. All walls are being re-plastered and many stripped back entirely making most vertical switch runs straightforward. All ceilings are down, so lighting runs are a doddle and I read the regs for how and where cables may be run where we do have to go through wooden joists.

Extractor's - again - as part of working with a builder/designer and structural engineers (NB NOT an Architect) to spec the changes to the house and engaging with Building control, the exact spec of bathroom and kitchen extractors was agreed a while ago: This included location of extractors having regard to bathroom zones and the location of 3 pole isolating switches outside the bathrooms. Same for low voltage shaver units and location of bathroom lights and required IP Ratings. My day job is as an IT Director/Consultant - I'm used to marshalling complex technical information, designing solutions and then managing deployments - so it doesn't phase me to have to do the research before finalizing a design.

Why test myself when I am paying a professional? 3 reasons.
1. I am reusing significant parts of 2 existing circuits. I could wait to see what happens when the inspection takes place, but as I have time (there is a 3 month building project going on so I don't need to rush) by disconnecting and testing the relevant current circuits, I can test and then make an informed decision on whether they really are OK.
2. It also means I can check and test my own work which I will find satisfying - let's be honest, part of the benefit of DIY is to feel you've done a good job. Who wants partp inspection day to highligh loads of dumb mistakes?
3. I don't feel I can claim to understand the basis of the regs, if I don't understand the basis of the tests. The purpose of the tests is to ensure the work being done is fit for purpose in terms of the design and safety (the underlying purpose of the regs). So by forcing myself to understand this and undertake most of the tests, I feel more confident about the design and installation. The insulation tests for example made me think about the impact of any supplementary bonding and whether an earth to a metal back box affects the electrical performance of the CPC.

Old vs new standards. While many things have moved on, the basics remain - don't they? Safely run, properly terminated cables of the correct rating to the correct rated circuit protection device. Yes, I had to think about loads of other stuff, where to run 10mm shower cabling so loading is OK, the spec and design of the 5+2+2 consumer unit, circuit ratings for showers, mix of MCB on 2 x RDC's, the need for a detection circuit not protected by an RCD and whether the spare circuit in the +2 bank would be sensibly used for a Garden circuit with the use of an RCBO.

Testing equipment hire vs buy: When I wrote the post, I was torn between hiring (advantage is that I should get a unit that is calibrated and up to date device) and an ebay 2nd hand piece of kit. In the end I tracked down what looks like a nearly new condition 1 year old KT63 with all its leads etc for £255 - assuming I don't need it in the future, I would expect to be able to sell it on ebay at the end for roughly the same - so project cost is low.

Finally on the point earlier about the fused spur. I think I'm still failing to explain - see simplified diagram below. The problem was that in a 32Amp circuit, a flex had been used to create an un-fused supply from the back of an existing socket to supply a Fused Switch unit that then provided a 13amp fuse to protect the boiler connection via its 13amp flex. Surely I am not going nuts thinking that is dangerous?

 

[JohnW2]

Finally on the point earlier about the fused spur. I think I'm still failing to explain - see simplified diagram below. The problem was that in a 32Amp circuit, a flex had been used to create an un-fused supply from the back of an existing socket to supply a Fused Switch unit that then provided a 13amp fuse to protect the boiler connection via its 13amp flex. Surely I am not going nuts thinking that is dangerous?

It's not particularly ideal but, as JohnD v2 said, it should not be dangerous, and may well be compliant with regulations. As he said, the downstream 13A fuse will provide 'overload protection' to the flex (overload current has to flow through both the flex and the 13A fuse, so it doesn't matter whether the fuse is at the 'start' or 'end' of the flex) and, as he also said, although one would theoretically have to undertake measurements and calculations to confirm, it is very probable that the 32A MCB will provide adequate 'fault protection' for the flex (in the event of short-circuits etc.).

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Further:

I think I'm still failing to explain

I think you are still failing to understand

The problem was that in a 32Amp circuit, a flex had been used to create an un-fused supply from the back of an existing socket to supply a Fused Switch unit

Therefore NOT an unfused supply.

that then provided a 13amp fuse to protect the boiler connection via its 13amp flex.

1mm² flex is only rated at 10A (don't know why). Fit 3A or 5A fuse.

Surely I am not going nuts thinking that is dangerous?

Just not understanding.

In the immortal words of Mr.Rumsfeld, you don't know what you don't know.

 

[motorbiking]

I learned most of my diy skills as a kid, watching my dad. My job was often to hold the sheet of asbestos so he could solder pipes. When I bought my first house, I learned off him. Many a call along the lines of "I've got two red wires and no black wire?". I'd have a go at most things particularly since "qualifieds" can be a bit hit and miss. The only real issue, is not having the expensive calibrated kit to properly test your circuits.