Electrical Saftey - France

poisson rouge · 3 Sep 2005

Hi,
Recently bought a 1930 house in the Bearn region (64) which I am slowly renovating.

I got a local electrician in to look over the wiring, it was fairly easy to see as almost all of it is in those horrid plastic cable ducting snaking about the walls in every room!

He gave it a clean bill of health (he must have been a expert as he had some sort of test meter in his hand).

I was concerend on a couple of things;

power sockets and light switches in the bathrooms (one set placed convieniently at the side of the bath!)

no sign of electrical earth bonding system visible

The expert didn't flinch and said its 'normal' to have sockets and switches in the bathroom, how else would I plug in the hair dryer or washing machine! Silly me. Then I mentioned water, wet hands and elctrical socks. Smiling, he says to dry my hands of these towels first. Well, that's a good idea.

Doubts set in rather quickly after that one.

I asked him about earth bonding. Could he show me where they are and could he do some sort of test to make sure things were safe. He said no, he couldn't see any, but that did not mean they are not fitted. That they were probably within the walls out of sight, which was normal, again. He sidestepped the testing bit and pointed out the 'superbe' cable ducting, so much, everywhere! As if I'm so lucky.

My questions are,

do I keep the sockets and switches in the bathroom. Pullcord switches seem a rarety here in France , but yes I could import them

how would I myself test to see if I've satisfactory earth bonding or not, before I call out another electrician?
Thanks

Steve · 5 Sep 2005

Just goes to show we in the UK have the safest electrical system in Europe.

Stoday · 6 Sep 2005

Just goes to show we in the UK have the most expensive and inflexible electrical system in Europe.

poisson rouge · 6 Sep 2005

Thanks guys,

I think Stoday hit the nail on the head!

ChrisMcAndrew · 8 Sep 2005

Let's get one thing straight. It's "Electrical Safety" not "Electrical Saftey", but spelling mistakes we can live with! But what about wiring mistakes?
Like many others, I bought a house in France, and I'm trying to get to grips with its electrical installation. The house is 30yrs+ and the wiring, in places, sometimes looks like a bird's nest! Perhaps someone can clear up one point for me?
Statement: wiring up terminals for 3-pin plugs and sockets in the UK is very easy, as they are clearly marked for the purpose.
Question: wiring up terminals for 3-pin plugs and sockets in France is less than easy, as only the earth is clearly marked for the purpose.
Observation: I appreciate that an AC device, eg lightbulb, will function with live and neutral crossed - hanging from the ceiling it may even be considered to be out of harm's way. But what about a dishwasher or washing machine? If no hard and fast rules are observed regarding live and neutral, I know the machine will work, but logic dictates it only has an even chance of being safe.
Any ideas ? Let's face it - we should switch the Live, not the Neutral, yes ?

plugwash · 8 Sep 2005

switching the live and neutral is not dangerous on modern european equipment. Otherwise germans would have real problems with thier unpolarised plugs.

french plugs are polariesed and i belive there is a convention for which way round they should be wired but its not always followed.

the reason polarity is so important on the uk system is to allow the plug fuse to function properly in the event of a fault to earth.

HandyJon · 8 Sep 2005

ChrisMcAndrew said:
... I bought a house in France...The house is 30yrs+ and the wiring, in places, sometimes looks like a bird's nest!

Some UK houses are like that too!

ChrisMcAndrew said:
I appreciate that an AC device, eg lightbulb, will function with live and neutral ... But what about a dishwasher or washing machine?

A dishwasher is an AC device too. In fact anything you plug in to the mains doesn't care too much about live/neutral. Yes there are exceptions, but they are few.

ChrisMcAndrew said:
Any ideas ? Let's face it - we should switch the Live, not the Neutral, yes ?

As far as I can remember, French switches are double poled just because of the fact that L & N could be switched. UK switches generally aren't so polarity is important here.

ChrisMcAndrew · 8 Sep 2005

plugwash said:
switching the live and neutral is not dangerous on modern european equipment. Otherwise germans would have real problems with thier unpolarised plugs.

french plugs are polariesed and i belive there is a convention for which way round they should be wired but its not always followed.

the reason polarity is so important on the uk system is to allow the plug fuse to function properly in the event of a fault to earth.

Okay - the German observation makes sense, I suppose !
Okay - but doesn't anyone know the French convention ?
Okay - the English comment makes sense !

Thanks for the feedback

++++++++++++++++++++++++

I appreciated that a Dishwasher was AC - give me some credit please Jon!

If, as you say, French switches are double-poled because of the fact that L & N could be reversed, then I can see that argument quite clearly !

But, if the Live side is fused and the Neutral is not (and it just so happens that the L and N have been crossed at the bird's nest type Distribution Board, then the electrical load will not function, of course, but the load will still be Live, waiting for any unsuspecting individual, n'est-ce pas ?

Do you see my point ?

Thanks for the feedback

________________________
moderator

please note 10a which is here

Haitch · 15 Sep 2005

Looks like I'm in pretty much the same boat as you poisson rouge (1930s house in the Limousin myself).

I'd check again for your earth bonding I found mine outside.

Why is everyone going on about double poled switches? How many French sockets have you seen with switches? Remember also in France there are a lot of 2 pin plugs that can be plugged in either way up in any case. So it wouldn't matter which way you wired it up.

I think I'm going to do the same as you and import some pullcords from the UK for the bathroom. Although I think French light switches are probably a bit safer than UK as there seems to be more layers of plastic before water can get to the contacts.

Regards

hAiTcHaItCh

ChrisMcAndrew · 15 Sep 2005

I doubt any switched socket outlets are available for domestic use in France. Like you, I haven't seen any.
No, the reason I mentioned double-pole switches was in the context of distribution boards/consumer units, not wall socket! One consumer unit I do have has switched fused ways, ie, when you switch (or break) the fuse, you also break the solid neutral on that way. That's what I referred to in my previous post.

So - if the Live and Neutral are crossed, for example way back at the start, and a fusible fuse (not an MCB) breaks, the neutral will have broken but the live will remain intact. That's my point.

By the way - for the perfectionists out there - what's the difference between a Consumer Unit and a Distribution Board. Anyone know?

plugwash · 15 Sep 2005

ChrisMcAndrew said:
So - if the Live and Neutral are crossed, for example way back at the start, and a fusible fuse (not an MCB) breaks, the neutral will have broken but the live will remain intact. That's my point.

i think they take a bit more care about live/neutral swap in that part of the system.

Adam_151 · 17 Sep 2005

ChrisMcAndrew said:
By the way - for the perfectionists out there - what's the difference between a Consumer Unit and a Distribution Board. Anyone know?

A cosumer unit is a type of distribution board, designed for reasonably low current single phase use, and intended for use in homes, IIRC

ChrisMcAndrew · 17 Sep 2005

Adam_151 said:
A consumer unit is a type of distribution board, designed for reasonably low current single phase use, and intended for use in homes, IIRC

Thank you Adam. A single phase domestic application, okay.

But what's IIRC ?

Chris

HandyJon · 17 Sep 2005

ChrisMcAndrew said:
But what's IIRC ?

If I Rember Correctly. Look up internet abbreviations and acronyms, for eg. http://www.stateofmindgames.co.uk/rob/netstuff/abbrev.html

ban-all-sheds · 1 Nov 2005

crafty1289 said:
Just goes to show we in the UK have the safest electrical system in Europe.

Stoday said:
Just goes to show we in the UK have the most expensive and inflexible electrical system in Europe.

poisson rouge said:
Smiling, he says to dry my hands of these towels first.

Just goes to show that French people do not take leave of their senses and become raving idiots when given a socket in the bathroom.

And I've never noticed piles of corpses and people wailing in the streets when I've been to France.