EV are they worth it?

[ericmark]

I watched Channel 5 yesterday on when to buy an EV car, they were saying some time in the future we will all need to buy an EV, but when.

The problem is interesting as it pointed out the problem of finding a charging point which worked, since I still use cash, it seems I can't use one. One has to have a bank account and a card payment system to drive an EV car.

Charge time was also of interest, he plugged in where parking limited to one hour, so need a car which can recharge in less than an hour, or at least get enough power to get to next charge point.

It seems there is a range of charge rates, which not only depend on the recharging point, but also the car, 2.2kW granny charger, 3.5 kW early EV's, 7 kW most EV's today, 22 kW only cars which can take a three phase supply, many only charge at 7 kW even on a 22 kW charge point, DC charging or fast charging as it seems to be called, only available with some cars, if you can find a charging station.

The low charge rate means charge points can already be full.

As to home charging it seems some councils will fit gullies for the cable, so not a trip hazard, but be it at an EV charge point or home unlike filling with liquid fuel often no one in attendance to point out trip hazards.

Most local trips I can use public transport, when we NEED the car rather than select it because it is handy is the long trip, so even if only 1 or 2 long trips per year, they are the important ones, hospital is 25 miles away, so minimum distance is 50 mile, I have needed to go 40 miles to hospitals which specialise, so really 80 miles, also 70 miles return to where rest of family lives, so if not able to do 100 miles then a non starter, and I mean 100 miles with heater on etc, not shivering all the way to save electric.

There are clearly cars which can do the job, but last car cost me £6,000 and that is what I want to spend on a car, not after the lap of luxury, getting A to B and back is what I want, so 10 years old is fine.

I would say 20 years maximum life, once I am 90 not really going to want to drive, mileage around 6000 per annum likely less.

 

[johnny2007]

You'll soon be sucked into "green" (planet destroying) black hole like the rest of us.
You will be forced to lease an electric box and swap it every 2-3 years because you, like 90% of other people, will not be able to afford buying.
So we'll all be in debts for the rest of our life and will have nothing to show for it.
Apparently this is very good for the environment.
(It is not, but it makes the 1% a ton of money every second)

 

[DiyNutJob]

Could be my age, I think old is better.

 

[JP_]

when we NEED the car rather than select it because it is handy is the long trip

And this could be a problem, if batteries don't like sitting being unused for weeks at a time.

 

[JP_]

And this could be a problem, if batteries don't like sitting being unused for weeks at a time.

"Tesla recommends starting with a 90% charge for long periods of inactivity. They don’t recommend 100% because this can have a negative effect on battery degradation.
As a general rule of thumb, always start with a 70% to 80% charge when leaving your electric car for more than two weeks. If you are leaving it for a week or so, a 60% to 70% charge should be sufficient.
Never leave your car inactive for more than a week with 20% or less battery. Batteries are less efficient with a lower charge, so the rate of battery loss increases."

https://topcharger.co.uk/how-long-can-an-electric-car-sit-without-charging/

All sounds a bit inconvenient. Imagine if you decide to go on holiday, then realise your car is fully charged - you've have to go for a drive to get the battery down to 80%.
Or, if it was almost out of charge, and then something happened, illness etc, and your £5000 battery bank died while you were in care.

 

[flameport]

when we NEED the car rather than select it because it is handy is the long trip,

For occasional long trips, you can rent a car for the day, weekend or whatever.
It's not compulsory or desirable to own an expensive massive car just because it might be needed a few times a year for that 300 mile journey.

You can even rent cars with drivers. They are called taxis, and will pick you up from your home or wherever else and drive you to whenever you want.

100 miles with heater on etc, not shivering all the way to save electric.

Most of the reduction in colder weather is due to how batteries work, as they are significantly less efficient in cold conditions.
Not using the heater will make very little difference.

A 1kW resistive electric heater used continuously on full for an hour (which would be grossly excessive for use in a car) would only use about 2% of the available energy in a vehicle with a fairly modest 50kWh battery.
People driving along freezing to death because they desperately need that extra 1% to reach their destination doesn't happen.

 

[Bodgedbuild]

My personal thoughts on EV cars are that they are brilliant but catastrophically flawed in that they have a battery that has to be charged by the end user. This is also a battery that will degrade and render the car useless before the rest of it's components are worn out. I think a push needs to be made for an automated quick change battery/batteries. These batteries can be owned by BP/Shell or whoever and the end user just buys the fuel (the electricity). This would involve fixed standards for dimensions but capacities and technology could improve on the amount the batteries store and hence older EV's no longer have the issue of degradation.
People have doubted the idea but if I mention the Calor gas bottle that I use on my BBQ as an example, I'm sure a similar approach could be applied to batteries...

 

[StephenStephen]

Two thoughts:

-Pretty much any current TV programmes, newspaper articles etc about EV's are full of different kinds of nonsense, and best seen as low quality psychedelic entertainment with little relationship with reality
-If you want to know more about EV's - it's really worth looking at an EV forum - I'd recommend SpeakEV

 

[empip]

Toyota Prius EV, battery change by over enthusiastic 'tuber.
Better from 3min 10secs into the video.

-0-

 

[ericmark]

For occasional long trips, you can rent a car for the day, weekend or whatever.

To rent a car, you need to go to some where to pick them up, which means again public transport to/from the rental place, and if we are going electric the rental cars will also be electric.

People have doubted the idea but if I mention the Calor gas bottle that I use on my BBQ as an example, I'm sure a similar approach could be applied to batteries...

The Bedford CF van did have two options, one was built in batteries, the other was a battery tray which could be changed, the latter gave it a refill with energy time similar to liquid fuel.

I have looked at the Bedford CF electric and compared with Renault Kango long wheel base electric van, and it seems we have not really advanced much, if any, in spite the CF using lead acid batteries it had a similar performance.

However there has been a move to recharging the electric with a hydrogen cell, this will allow faster refill times.

Toyota Prius EV, battery change by over enthusiastic 'tuber.

This is a hybrid not a full EV. I do think we are missing a trick with the EV vs hybrid, I think we need a 3.5 kW generator built into the car, so it extends the range and means you can recharge anywhere, yes one could carry a 3.5 kW generator and plug the car in with a granny charger, but that means the generator is left outside the car, so you need to be some where secure, most trips are split into two out and return, and the whole trip for 100 miles or more, will likely be spread over 5 hours or more, so a small generator would extend the range by half again when needed, but most of the time never used. This is basic what the hydrogen cells do, but until we have a refill infrastructure using petrol or diesel would be better, since the fuel is not used directly to power the car, not sure about road fuel tax? However still pay road fuel tax on petrol used for a chain saw.

 

[bernardgreen]

An acquaintance was convinced that EV was the way to go, save the planet etc etc, that was until his partner ran out of "fuel" a few miles from home last Sunday night.

Re-fueling a with a jerry can of electrons is very different to re-fueling with a jerry can of hydro-carbons.

 

[DiyNutJob]

Toyota Prius EV, battery change by over enthusiastic 'tuber.

The battery is a condensed energy store and is highly dangerous. It's bit like messing with a petrol tank. Although, petrol has higher energy density than batteries. Impacts on batteries can start a fire or explosion and lithium fire can't be put out by water. It's probably best not to play with a battery, not even ones in your ipad or laptop.

 

[mattylad]

To rent a car, you need to go to some where to pick them up, which means again public transport to/from the rental place, and if we are going electric the rental cars will also be electric.

Not entirely correct old bean, many car rental companies also deliver and collect.
There are also EV car rentals.

 

[ericmark]

It is 28 miles to Shrewsbury from where I live, technically I live in a town, there was some years ago a live stock market here, but with less than 2000 population it is really a village, the road to Pool the Welsh one has now been repaired, it was a 20 mile trip even to there, now back down to 8 miles.

When I reached 70 my licence ran out, and the DVLA took over 8 months to renew it, the train had stopped running due to Colvid, and the Buses were not really safe, so I got an e-bike, however more to point tried living without the use of a car, did not help found wife also had no licence, it had been revoked years ago, but no one told her, she only found out after sending it in to get address changed. Seems a paperwork error, but still both of us without a licence and it was a bit uncertain if we could drive.

It says we could drive once we had made a valid application, but until the DVLA reply, you don't know if the application is valid.

With daughter delivering some shopping, and started with full freezer, and got the milk delivered, we got by without driving, so experienced what it is like without a car. Main problem was we both had paper licences, and neither of us had valid passports, so we needed to make a paper based on line application, never realised before that you can post off an on line application!

Since getting our licenses back, we have continued using deliveries, and we only travel to hospital, holidays, or to visit children, so minimum distance travelled is 56 miles, to nearest hospital and back. For specialist treatment Telford so 85 miles return, to visit children 95 miles return, holiday was 230 miles over night.

The nearest hospital nearly any electric car would do it. But only person I know with an EV is the milkman where we use to live, he had a Renault Kango long wheel base electric van, which is about the age of car I would be looking at for a replacement, range published 120 miles, his round 64 miles, and some times he did not make it and had to use the stand-by diesel pick-up. OK I expect some exaggeration, but that is going OTT, maximum charge rate 3.5 kW, does not matter what the charge point can deliver.

Think I would carry a 4kW inverter generator in case, but the big question is why one is not built into the car? I don't mean an engine large enough to drive the car, but one to extend the range and mean it does not rely on finding an EV charging point that works.

I know at work the EV charging point keys are held by one man, if some thing goes wrong, need to wait until the next time he is in, and he is a volunteer so could take a week just to reset a RCD. As yet it has not tripped, well it has tripped up volunteers where the charging lead has be left looped outside the personal door, but not tripped the electric.

People tend to look at where they live, and forget not everyone lives near a large town or city, with a bus service from 6 am to 11 pm to local city as with my last house in Wales. Here bus service 9:30 am to 6:00 pm so with an hour travel, yes 50 minutes to travel 8 miles, faster on my e-bike, public transport is a laugh.

As to @DiyNutJob are you sure that is electric not hydrogen? Seen same video claiming it was a hydrogen powered bus.

I am lucky, I could charge my car off road, but 50% of homes in this Town do not have off street parking, many have to park in a council car park, not even outside their own house, and just two EV charge points, OK 22 kW, but most cars still only charge at 7 kW as can only use one phase.

Three years ago it was rare to see a car on charge, today rare not to see one, often both charge points in use, soon we will be seeing them queueing up. OK being in a queue when it takes 5 minutes to re-fill, but not when it takes 5 hours.

 

[DiyNutJob]

As to @DiyNutJob are you sure that is electric not hydrogen? Seen same video claiming it was a hydrogen powered bus.

Hydrogen doesn't catch fire, it explodes. This is why a hydrogen bomb is 1000 times more powerful than a nuke. If that bus was powered by hydrogen, you would be seeing the bus in 1 inch pieces when it ignited.

What is the reason why you can't get a small engined conventional car to keep it cheap? I don't imagine at 70 you still need to be a race car driver. Here's a good selection of small cars: https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/small-cars/10l-cars/2001/cars-with-the-smallest-engines

An additional option is a smart car for two. I have a feeling you have more cash than you know what to do with. If you send them to me, I will give you more clever ideas. Rather than lugging things around, just buy and keep what you need at the destination of your long trips.

Neither drive by wire nor high energy batteries are mature technologies. Let the young and stupid be the pioneers and take the highest risks.