House extension- are windows part of ‘first fix’? Invoice dispute!

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jetman

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Hi all,

I’m currently having a large home extension built, with payment to the builder in stages, and I’ve received the latest invoice following ‘first fix’ of electrics and plumbing.
However: The builder still hasn’t fitted any windows or doors to the extension, and I’m wondering whether I should be delaying payment of the invoice, as, to me, the windows and doors should be in as part of, or before the ‘first fix’ of electrics and plumbing.

Do I pay the invoice, or request that doors and windows are fitted first?

Any advice or recommendations gratefully received!
 
Never ever pay for work stages that are not complete.

If the windows aren't fixed you simply don't pay for them. Whether you need to pay for the material costs as they are specialist order, is up to you (or your contract), but unless the frames are on site, I would not pay for that element either.

This should not stop you paying for the work that is complete, you can't just not pay for any of it unless you have specific contractual agreement to do that.
 
Thank you Woody- really appreciate your thoughts!

So would you consider doors and windows to be part of (or before, or after) the ‘first fix’?

I’m very happy to pay for the work if it’s been done, but I’m wondering what defines ‘first fix’. (The specifics of what is included within each stage isn’t in the contract)

A separate issue is that we’re being invoiced for the full amount of additional work that we’ve requested, (such as a new boiler) despite the work not being started yet.

Thanks again! :-)
 
jetman said:
Thank you Woody- really appreciate your thoughts!

So would you consider doors and windows to be part of (or before, or after) the ‘first fix’?

I’m very happy to pay for the work if it’s been done, but I’m wondering what defines ‘first fix’. (The specifics of what is included within each stage isn’t in the contract)

A separate issue is that we’re being invoiced for the full amount of additional work that we’ve requested, (such as a new boiler) despite the work not being started yet.

Thanks again! :)
Click to expand...


Be careful, what your builder is doing is a classic sign of cashflow problems, I know Ive been involved in a few builders going bust

Did you do your due diligence on the builder? -if not, I would do so. Get him credit checked and see if he has any CCJs.

Google his name on companys house and see if he has any previous Ltd Companies that are dissolved.

Do not pay ahead of the schedule -it leaves you vulnerable, because he has all the power. If he has your money, he doesnt have to be on site and doesnt to finish nor fix snags.

Many builders get cashflow problens not always their fault -your builder could be doing a big job and the customers arent paying on time.

Its likely your builder cant order your windows until you pay him -ask him for the order confirmation for the windows and doors for proof, if he refuses or majes excuses you know the answer. You could simply say you would like to see the order so you can check window schedule and configuration.

I would expect a building to be fully weathertight before first fix commences.
 
jetman said:
Thank you Woody- really appreciate your thoughts!

So would you consider doors and windows to be part of (or before, or after) the ‘first fix’?

I’m very happy to pay for the work if it’s been done, but I’m wondering what defines ‘first fix’. (The specifics of what is included within each stage isn’t in the contract)

A separate issue is that we’re being invoiced for the full amount of additional work that we’ve requested, (such as a new boiler) despite the work not being started yet.

Thanks again! :)
Click to expand...

Strictly, windows and external doors are not first fix they are just "windows and doors" or as a stage "wind and weathertight"- however its down to interpretation.

There is no "second fix" for the external frames so it really isn't a "first fix" stage. But perhaps the builder is thinking of a stage when the structure is weather tight and the other first fixes are in?

Regardless, if they are not fixed, you should not be paying for them - as by the builder's own definition the stage is not complete.

As for the extras, its the same principle - you don't pay until the work is done or a cost is incurred - ie the boiler ordered and delivered to site.
 
Thank you Notch7!

He has mentioned cash flow, and I can understand that people paying an invoice late can cause issues such as that- ours is a big job, and I’d hate to be the person causing the cash flow problems, but equally I want to make sure we get what we’re employing him to do.
As I mentioned, I’m more than happy to pay the invoices as they come in, so long as the relevant work has been done. It’s been a while now that we’ve been waiting for windows, and the plasterers have even started- plastic sheeting has been put up at all the window & door openings, but was I right to be expecting solid doors & windows by the end of first fix?

I feel reasonably confident all is ok for him business-wise but I’ll have a look at companies house just in case...!
 
I agree with Notch.
As a spark, I would not consider commencing a FF until the whole building is weathertight.
 
Just what does the invoice state?

Does it just say "First Fix" it does it specify FF plumbing and/or electrics?
I'd expect the invoice to actually state which first fix it was billing for.

as others have commented - it does seem odd that the plumbing, electrics and plastering has started before the house is secure.
 
The latest invoice says ‘completion of first fix’

The contract as signed a few months ago splits the whole job into the following stages, alongside the payment percentage:

Deposit 10%
Completion of ground works 20%
Completion of brickwork to roof level 20%
Completion of roof 20%
Completion of first fix 20%
Completion of works 10%

We’ve paid everything up until now, but were expecting the windows & doors before or just after Christmas. According to the builder the doors (which we’ve specified are to be very low wheelchair accessible threshold) can’t be measured for, until the underfloor heating screed is done (Screed & ufh are all now done). I know there was an issue with some windows as they are within 1m from an adjacent property, and in early December the builder said he’d have to change the design to wooden frames to satisfy building regs rather than UPVC as on the original quote. (I think when he did the quote he mustn’t have known the regs re. windows within a metre of the boundary) I found a supplier myself who can provide UPVC fire windows, and the builders’ reason for the delay was that his window supplier was/is having delays getting responses from the people I found.

Whatever the situation with him/his window supplier- I don’t feel confident paying the full 20% at this stage considering we still have no windows or doors. Hence my question of what the ‘first fix’ is expected to include.

Thanks again for all the responses.
 
Deposit 10%
Completion of ground works 20%
Completion of brickwork to roof level 20%
Completion of roof 20%
Completion of first fix 20%
Completion of works 10%

based on the above, the windows and doors are most definitely part of the works required to be completed as part of the completion of first fix -but unfortunately that is poor breakdown -you should have a payment on completion of getting weathertight.

what you are saying is you have paid 70% and he wants you paid up to 90% -I would hold out until windows are in

I accept that there are circumstances when windows and doors go in very late in the build and in fact with timber windows or aly they may go in close to the end after nearly all the wet trades are complete -but that creates challenges for plastering around windowboards etc.

builders sometimes plaster all the walls before the the windows and doors go in -they can set the reveal beads then plaster the reveals after, but it creates a problems with the windowboards.

your builder is wrong it is possible to fit the doors before screeding if datums are set out correctly -thats why we have laser levels these days.

completion of first fix should include floors, door linings, ceiling plasterboard, stud wall plasterboarding.

it is normal on large contracts to have a retention to get the builder back for snagging -did you agree that?

Also -I wouldnt pay the final 10% until you get your building certificate
 
jetman said:
Deposit 10%
Completion of ground works 20%
Completion of brickwork to roof level 20%
Completion of roof 20%
Completion of first fix 20%
Completion of works 10%
Click to expand...

But that's 90% of the money paid when only around 60% of the work is complete.

Second fix electrics, heating, carpentry, kitchen(?) sanitary suite(?) flooring, painting, lighting, landscaping? All in that final 10%.
 
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