This follows a discussion on another thread, which has all been deleted...
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding or just total ignorance about the way the EU actually works.
EU legislation is generated by the European Commission - the unelected bureaucracy - and this is then rubber stamped by the European Parliament. In normal democracies it is the other way round - the elected representatives create the legislation and then the bureaucracy is expected to put this into effect.
The average EU Parliamentarian has no hope of consuming or understanding the vast amount of information put before them in the time available to read and vote on it. Bear in mind that the commission is endlessly churning out legislation. So when we say "rubber stamping" it is literally that in most cases.
And this is where most of our laws came from during a significant period of time. An opaque and unelected bureaucracy in a foreign country, via a rubber stamping process that we were supposedly influencing via our votes, and then sent to the national government to put into effect. Our national democracy was basically a complete illusion during that period and it didn't matter much who formed a government whilst they had little if any say in the majority of law making.
Unless the mechanics of how the EU works are properly understood, rather than thinking about it in a vague way, an informed opinion about it cannot be formed.
Then consider, with a virtially all-powerful and highly centralised bureaucracy, mostly free from the inconveniences of proper auditing and democracy, how easy it is for large corporations and billionaires to lobby the European Commission for their own interests. Most of the regulations contain a litany of covert intentions buried beneath the stated intentions. Nothing to do with the good of the people, the environment or whatever else is claimed in the blurb.
The average person has no chance at all to influence such a process. Far less so than if their national government has all the power since, in that case, they can at least lobby their local MP or march to London.
It is strange that the average lefty supports something that so obviously is for the rich and powerful and so obviously against, or at best indifferent, to the interests of ordinary people. The EU is the very embodiment of crony capitalism.
There are various presentations all about the EU-derived legislation we still have and what has been changed. The trouble with the average lawyer and big legal firm that discusses this topic, is that they have a very obvious vested interest in having reams and reams of complicated legislation, all requiring interpretation and argument and court cases. Lawyers are one of the main beneficiaries of EU legislation.
I prefer to consider practical, every day matters that affect ordinary people.
Just look at the fact that there has been a virtual moratorium on house building in parts of this country - at a time when we have a severe shortage - thanks to ecological legislation derived from EU Directives that were not jettisoned. I'm not talking about building on nature reserves either or anything like that. Same nonsense that is damaging European farming and causing mass protests in countries like the Netherlands. Phosphates, nitrates... Look it up.
Or - seemingly trivial example - the fact that we can now only buy these stupid little toilets, that are a retrograde step from what the Victorians provided - supposedly in the name of saving water. EU Directive 5389452 "Water Resources". In a country where we have an abundance of water... and it doesn't save water because people just have to flush the toilet more to clear a turd. Wasting time and water. And resulting in more bleach being used. This is a small example that any ordinary person can observe and think about for themselves. Legislation, ostensibly intended to save water and protect the environment, does not save water and causes more harm to the environment... but there will be certain companies selling rubbish small toilet tanks that are laughing, having lobbied for an edge on their competitors, covertly, through legislation.
What examples can you think of?
Spin this out through all the areas of life and the economy that the EU pokes its nose into and you will find case after case of unintended (or was it?) consequences, built on grifting and lies. This from a body that is not elected and is located in a foreign country remote from most of the people who are affected.
Being an ordinary person, I tend to think in terms of the average Joe and what is in their interests, versus billionaires and global corporations. If this is "right wing" then that's fine by me, I don't care what people call it. But I'm not going to be a useful idiot for rich, greedy people.
Now we are out of the EU but we have elites who clearly regret this. A large number of damaging and unnecessary regulations remain in place. The government has superficially and half heartedly withdrawn us from the EU but we are not a free democracy in the way other advanced, non EU countries are. And there will be pressure to draw us, and our money, back in. Don't forget, £12Bn annual fee (net) and £90Bn annual trade deficit on average.
Be informed about the subject or you might be a useful idiot for people who certainly do not care about you or your family. At the very least, regardless of your opinion, understand the basic facts.
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding or just total ignorance about the way the EU actually works.
EU legislation is generated by the European Commission - the unelected bureaucracy - and this is then rubber stamped by the European Parliament. In normal democracies it is the other way round - the elected representatives create the legislation and then the bureaucracy is expected to put this into effect.
The average EU Parliamentarian has no hope of consuming or understanding the vast amount of information put before them in the time available to read and vote on it. Bear in mind that the commission is endlessly churning out legislation. So when we say "rubber stamping" it is literally that in most cases.
And this is where most of our laws came from during a significant period of time. An opaque and unelected bureaucracy in a foreign country, via a rubber stamping process that we were supposedly influencing via our votes, and then sent to the national government to put into effect. Our national democracy was basically a complete illusion during that period and it didn't matter much who formed a government whilst they had little if any say in the majority of law making.
Unless the mechanics of how the EU works are properly understood, rather than thinking about it in a vague way, an informed opinion about it cannot be formed.
Then consider, with a virtially all-powerful and highly centralised bureaucracy, mostly free from the inconveniences of proper auditing and democracy, how easy it is for large corporations and billionaires to lobby the European Commission for their own interests. Most of the regulations contain a litany of covert intentions buried beneath the stated intentions. Nothing to do with the good of the people, the environment or whatever else is claimed in the blurb.
The average person has no chance at all to influence such a process. Far less so than if their national government has all the power since, in that case, they can at least lobby their local MP or march to London.
It is strange that the average lefty supports something that so obviously is for the rich and powerful and so obviously against, or at best indifferent, to the interests of ordinary people. The EU is the very embodiment of crony capitalism.
There are various presentations all about the EU-derived legislation we still have and what has been changed. The trouble with the average lawyer and big legal firm that discusses this topic, is that they have a very obvious vested interest in having reams and reams of complicated legislation, all requiring interpretation and argument and court cases. Lawyers are one of the main beneficiaries of EU legislation.
I prefer to consider practical, every day matters that affect ordinary people.
Just look at the fact that there has been a virtual moratorium on house building in parts of this country - at a time when we have a severe shortage - thanks to ecological legislation derived from EU Directives that were not jettisoned. I'm not talking about building on nature reserves either or anything like that. Same nonsense that is damaging European farming and causing mass protests in countries like the Netherlands. Phosphates, nitrates... Look it up.
Or - seemingly trivial example - the fact that we can now only buy these stupid little toilets, that are a retrograde step from what the Victorians provided - supposedly in the name of saving water. EU Directive 5389452 "Water Resources". In a country where we have an abundance of water... and it doesn't save water because people just have to flush the toilet more to clear a turd. Wasting time and water. And resulting in more bleach being used. This is a small example that any ordinary person can observe and think about for themselves. Legislation, ostensibly intended to save water and protect the environment, does not save water and causes more harm to the environment... but there will be certain companies selling rubbish small toilet tanks that are laughing, having lobbied for an edge on their competitors, covertly, through legislation.
What examples can you think of?
Spin this out through all the areas of life and the economy that the EU pokes its nose into and you will find case after case of unintended (or was it?) consequences, built on grifting and lies. This from a body that is not elected and is located in a foreign country remote from most of the people who are affected.
Being an ordinary person, I tend to think in terms of the average Joe and what is in their interests, versus billionaires and global corporations. If this is "right wing" then that's fine by me, I don't care what people call it. But I'm not going to be a useful idiot for rich, greedy people.
Now we are out of the EU but we have elites who clearly regret this. A large number of damaging and unnecessary regulations remain in place. The government has superficially and half heartedly withdrawn us from the EU but we are not a free democracy in the way other advanced, non EU countries are. And there will be pressure to draw us, and our money, back in. Don't forget, £12Bn annual fee (net) and £90Bn annual trade deficit on average.
Be informed about the subject or you might be a useful idiot for people who certainly do not care about you or your family. At the very least, regardless of your opinion, understand the basic facts.
