I'm planning to build a 'porch' that is actually a small extension - permitted development question

[Dontblamethetools]

So, basically I want to build a small extension 3sqm. My house is not at all typical, even though it's in a typical urban estate it's the end house of three and doesn't have any other houses facing it, there is only someone's back garden on the left and to the right I have a neighbour that can actually see my house - what I'm trying to get at is I might not have a problem getting planning permission if I applied but as with anything with the council it's a flip of a coin. My front 'garden' is absolutely tiny, so they might take issue with that, but that's one of the reasons I want to build the extension because it's already to small to be useful as a garden anyway. I'd really want to avoid planning permission, I've had nothing but problems with every single department of the council, they seem to be clueless and wreckless beyond belief. The last time I applied for planning permission for a detached garage at the back they were making the most stupid arguments I've heard in my life e.g "what if someone parks outside the door and blocks your access"... after arguing with them for a year! and long periods of months at a time without hearing anything I had to file an appeal which was swiftly upheld and the appeal officer gave them a showing up. I'd rather live in a tent than deal with them idiots again - they'd probably tell me I didn't have permission for the tent either. I've no problem with building control - I'm happy to have them involved from the beginning.

So you've probably guessed the plan, build a 3 sqm 'porch'! The only problem is I don't want to build it over the area my front door is. How about this? I replace my front facing living window with patio doors - I'm sure this will spark some debate but I've concluded that's permitted development (happy to hear other views). Then I build my 3sqm 'porch' in front of my patio 'external door' - the porch will be built to look surprisingly like a small extension with a window and brickwork surpisingly similar to what I have now but a meter and a bit forward. I'll then apply for a lawful development certificate. Then I'll take the patio doors out.

Can anyone see any issues? am I missing something really obvious?

 

[^woody^]

You'll need permission for the new door. And you'll have to block up the old one. And I wonder if there is precedent for altering the main entrance and the implied main front elevation?

Could the problem with every single council department and every single council worker not be with those council departments and workers but with how they are interacted with?

 

[johnny2007]

Many issues here.
Changing the front door position requires planning permission.
If you get it and build the porch, it might not be as simple as remove the french doors.
When I built my mini extension I intended to remove the original front door but BC insisted that I had to keep it.
So I moved the front door forward and fitted a door similar to the other internal I have.
I didn't regret it because that porch is north facing and I didn't install heating, so it's pretty cold.
Othrr option is to do what most people not called Dave or Steve do: just build it and wait 6 years so the council will lose interest in enforcement.

 

[Dontblamethetools]

You'll need permission for the new door. And you'll have to block up the old one. And I wonder if there is precedent for altering the main entrance and the implied main front elevation?

Could the problem with every single council department and every single council worker not be with those council departments and workers but with how they are interacted with?

I'd have thought that, but I've found a fair few resources that suggest it would be permitted. It does make sense to me that permission would be needed as I'd be changing the look of the front of the house "the street scene" - but then again I could build a 3sqm plastic purple striped with pink spots porch in front of my actual front door and that wouldn't be a problem (well at least it would be a problem that they'd have to live with). So I'm on the fence about that but I could be convinced permission is required. Here's one such example: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=207&t=1840609 but I've found several others.

Be it as I'd be installing patio/french doors - I'd be able to keep my existing 'front' door? surely, no?

Regarding the council, if I didn't know what I do, I'd be asking the exact same question as you. Ok maybe I exaggerate, so it's 2 departments (but they're the only 2 I've had to deal with, so technically correct it's every single department lol). The appeal officer from last time literally destroyed the council, it was the most simple, vanilla, clear cut and obvious decision a council could be expected to make. So that gave me some comfort that I was not the issue. I was very reasonable with them, sadly it was not reciprocated. Then the same thing with the next department which I won't name but is the department that are renowned for being completely stupid, frankly a danger and 50% of the population are unhappy with. I'll not say anymore but it was proven that beyond doubt they'd acted recklessly and the case transferred to another council and hey presto! that council are in disbelief of what the prior council had been getting away with! so I take comfort in that. I just do not want to deal with this council anymore, so much so that I'm considering moving. But that's my life story in a nutshell.

 

[Dontblamethetools]

Many issues here.
Changing the front door position requires planning permission.
If you get it and build the porch, it might not be as simple as remove the french doors.
When I built my mini extension I intended to remove the original front door but BC insisted that I had to keep it.
So I moved the front door forward and fitted a door similar to the other internal I have.
I didn't regret it because that porch is north facing and I didn't install heating, so it's pretty cold.
Othrr option is to do what most people not called Dave or Steve do: just build it and wait 6 years so the council will lose interest in enforcement.

Thanks for sharing your views. I tend to agree that changing the front door position requires planning permission, although that's what I'd always thought, but now I could be convinced either way depending on interpretation of the rules. I'm not looking to change my front door position though, that will stay. I'm looking to replace my front living room window with french/patio doors hence creating an "external door", that will then allow me to build my "porch".

I completely agree about building regulations/control. I'm more than happy to have them involved from the beginning - I'll get proper sign off from them including removing the patio doors later.

I'm liking your final option and that's one I'm considering but I want to get building control sign off and I reckon they'll ask about planning permission. The position the house is, really no neighbours would normally even see it. There is a public pathway about 30 yards away and down a big bank that people do use for walking/walking dogs etc but there's no way anyone would be interested let alone bothered by my 'porch' - I am tempted because I'm almost certain the council would have no idea. But I've heard the 4 year rule is probably going to be gone soon and I'd have to wait 10 years (still not a problem but I might want to sell and move before then). I'm then not sure what issue it would cause building control to check the foundations etc.

 

[^woody^]

I could build a 3sqm plastic purple striped with pink spots porch in front of my actual front door and that wouldn't be a problem

Part of PD criteria is that materials should match the main building.

I agree that there can be a particular mindset within planning departments and some parts of councils generally. You have to know how to deal with that without without becoming the type of person that they will then go out of their way to obstruct.

 

[Diver Fred]

I know this may not be the most helpful suggestion, for you, but probably the most practical.

Does the council's planning department have a 'Pre-Planning' system? If it does then do the following :-

Do an accurate sketch plan of what you want to do. By accurate I mean add measurements including how the building lies in regard to your neighbours. I'd be wary of including anything that is contentious such as the patio doors. Go and talk to them and ask for their advice.

That does seem to improve your chances of knowing what you need to do.

 

[Dontblamethetools]

Part of PD criteria is that materials should match the main building.

I agree that there can be a particular mindset within planning departments and some parts of councils generally. You have to know how to deal with that without without becoming the type of person that they will then go out of their way to obstruct.

I agree it would be sensible for the materials to match, and indeed I do intend them to. You are most probably right, there must be some rule somewhere that I'm not seeing, but from my cursory research I could not find that this rule applies to class D, it appears only to apply to class A, B and F, which seems odd but I guess if someone added a full PVC porch as many do the council could technically say the materials don't match, so maybe I could have my pink porch? lol