Issue with hot water, heating controls

[Sweetpayn]

Hi guys,

I need some advice regarding hot water and heating thermostats.

We’ve recently moved in a new building- all electric.

The hot water doesn’t go more then 1/2 bath after that is completely cold.

We have a 175l Joule unvented cylinder with a aqua system.( Attached pics with both specs)

My wife is very disappointed so I need somehow to solve this. We didn’t had this problems previously, we used gas boilers.. hot water was coming 24/7.

What should I do..? What options do I have?
I really need the hot water for longer use.. at least 2-3 full baths..

The other issue is that the flat has electrical heaters and I can’t find any way to connect all of them (x5) to a smart thermostat.. so I can schedule/ program together.
The only way of setting anything on them is to go at each and every heather to set it individually.


Please advice,
A.

 

[stem]

The problem could be with the immersion heaters. Normally there are two fitted, and the symptoms you describe usually occur when only the top one is operating, meaning that just the water in the top section of the cylinder is being heated.

Possibly the bottom immersion heater element overheat device may have 'tripped' and need resetting, or the thermostat, or heating element may be faulty.

It could be that the bottom element may be connected to an 'off peak' supply that is only energised when cheaper electricity is available (usually during the night). In which case it won't work if it were only to be switched on at 'peak' supply times during the day. It would need to be left on during the 'off peak' times to fully heat the cylinder.

I'm not familiar with the heaters that you refer to, but AFAIK only heaters equipped with a 'pilot wire' designed for remote control are really suitable for remote control. They have a permanent mains supply to keep the controls powered up, and a separate remote control wire.

Standard smart thermostats designed for boilers only have a low current rating (Nest for example has a 3A capacity) which is all that is required by the control circuits & not the much heaver currents associated with electric heating. It may be possible to use interfacing relays to switch the higher currents, but it's not easy to do, and without a separate unswitched power supply, you would loose power to the heater controls and they may not like that.

Hopefully someone who has installed some of these heaters and is familiar with them will be able to advise, or it should tell you in the installation manual if you have one.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

This place is going to cost a fortune to run.

 

[Doggit]

How much water is in the bath before it gets cold. Depending on where the element is positioned, you may only be getting 130litres warmed up, possibly less. Is the water properly hot when you run it. See if you can adjust the tank element to run hotter. Looks like you've only got one element in that tank, so you may need a larger tank. Is it on a peak or off peak rate, and is there a timer just running it for an hour or so.

 

[ericmark]

There is a system called Willis where the immersion heater is in a separate container at side of main cylinder and heats from the top, and will heat whole tank, other than that system it does not heat to bottom of tank.

 

[Sweetpayn]

Thank you for all prompt replay.

@stem
Everithing is new and told about the developer that have been tested so ..I think that everything should be allright.
I don`t think that I have different electricity prices.. I pay for 1kWh around 14pence. (British Gas)

Regarding the heaters..after a lot of forum search I can see that smart thermostat is only for gas boilers due to electric capacity. Sadly is no option for me...I was dreaming to something like this for long time. Seems that my sun ray plus radiators don`t have any wire tehnology..only way to control them is via a remote control which is priced around 100GBP and makes me move around in front of all the heaters..

I will try to sell them or to return them...and upgrade them to wi-fi integrated or this wire tehnology whcih you where talking about.


ban-all-sheds
2785 kWh/annum which is less then 35 GBP/month with hot water available at anytime.

Doggit
The bath is positioned at 2m from the cylinder.
I need to check if I have one or two elements.. the water comes very hot, piping hot.
Joule team advicer told me to keep it on 24/7 , seems that if I will programm it ...after the tank gets cold ..consume more electricity then to keep it hot...dosen`t make to much sense for me to be honest. Probably my only option for getting more hot water is a bigger cylinder.

ericmark
I think that my cylinder capacity is to small for what I need...I need to test.




Seems that I need a system to provide me hot water after this 175l finishes from the cylinder.
For the wall electrical heaters is quite clar that I need to change them if I need to "connect" them.

 

[flameport]

getting more hot water is a bigger cylinder.

A large cylinder would certainly contain more hot water, but if your existing one is cold after only half a bath, there is something wrong.
A normal size bath is about 80-100 litres when 'full' to a usable level - and a fair amount of that would be cold water.
The same bath is only about 180 litres when filled to overflowing.

A 170 litre cylinder should easily be capable of providing enough hot water for a bath with plenty left over.

Either your bath is vast, or the cylinder is not being heated fully.

Something else to consider that if you have previously had gas heating, it would have heated the cylinder far more quickly than electric.
A 170 litre cylinder with a single 3kW element will take 3 to 4 hours to fully heat up from cold.

Joule team advicer told me to keep it on 24/7

If you use large amounts of hot water for baths, that is the correct advice.

 

[Sweetpayn]

@flameport

Thank you for clarifying this to me.
My bath is a normal one. I will definitely check why is not heating fully with the plumber who done the fitting/ setting.

 

[JohnW2]

We’ve recently moved in a new building- all electric. ..... 2785 kWh/annum

Where did that figure come from?

Forget the house heating and cooking for a moment. I don't know how much hot water you use but, by my reckoning, to heat a (140 litre) tank of water each day from, say 18°C to 62°C would, alone, use roughly that amount of energy (I make it 2,623 kWh/year, ignoring losses).

Kind Regards, John

 

[Sweetpayn]

Where did that figure come from?

The figure is written on it and confirmed with a member from Joule team.

Regards,
Andrei S.

 

[JohnW2]

The figure is written on it and confirmed with a member from Joule team.

Are you talking just about the water heating? If so then, as my calculation demonstrates, that figure seems to be in the right ball park (and is what one would expect of any electrical water heating - since the laws of physics are always the same!).

However, when BAS wrote "This place is going to cost a fortune to run.", I presume that he was referring to the total cost of running your 'all electric' house, not just the water heating, which is presumably but a small part of the total electrical energy consumption.

Kind Regards, John

 

[winston1]

Joule team advicer told me to keep it on 24/7 , seems that if I will programm it ...after the tank gets cold ..consume more electricity then to keep it hot...dosen`t make to much sense for me to be honest.

It WILL always consume more electrical energy to keep it on 24/7. Quite simply the losses will happen 24/7 as well.

 

[JohnW2]

It WILL always consume more electrical energy to keep it on 24/7. Quite simply the losses will happen 24/7 as well.

Very true. However, if one wants 'full temperature' water 24/7, then there is no option but to accept that.

Of course, the better the lagging, the less will be the increased energy used by leaving the heater on 24/7. With 'perfect lagging' (no losses), it would make no difference whether or not the heater was left 'on' (powered, but obviously not using energy all of the time) 24/7.

Kind Regards, John

 

[winston1]

Very true. However, if one wants 'full temperature' water 24/7, then there is no option but to accept that.

Of course, the better the lagging, the less will be the increased energy used by leaving the heater on 24/7. With 'perfect lagging' (no losses), it would make no difference whether or not the heater was left 'on' (powered, but obviously not using energy all of the time) 24/7.

Kind Regards, John

Indeed, and with perfect lagging as it would always remain full temperature until some was drawn off (and cold water added), it could remain switched off until hot water was required. The switch could be a one shot device which would turn off when up to temperature again.

 

[JohnW2]

Indeed, and with perfect lagging as it would always remain full temperature until some was drawn off (and cold water added), it could remain switched off until hot water was required. The switch could be a one shot device which would turn off when up to temperature again.

Indeed, but one wouldn't have to do it manually - that 'switch which would turn off when up to temperature again' is surely what we normally call the immersion's thermostat, and it would do just as you say (turn element on when some water was drawn, then turn it off once back up to temperature), if the immersion (with its thermostat) was 'on' 24/7.

Kind Regards, John