Mr Bates and the post office

[motorbiking]

The blame for the shortfalls was not the IT supplier it was the PO. The supplier will do what its customer ask and only if it did something that its customer had not authorised is it exposed. We can't expect Fujitsu to know the contractual relationship between the SPMs and the PO. For them they were simply employee users.

If it turns out that the "data fixes" were done in secrete from the PO, then we have potential beach of contract right up to criminal activity.

 

[blup]

The blame for the shortfalls was not the IT supplier it was the PO. The supplier will do what its customer ask and only if it did something that its customer had not authorised is it exposed. We can't expect Fujitsu to know the contractual relationship between the SPMs and the PO. For them they were simply employee users.

If it turns out that the "data fixes" were done in secrete from the PO, then we have potential beach of contract right up to criminal activity.

If the software says 2+2=3, its the supliers fault even if the customer signs it off on that basis

 

[ellal]

People did actually commit crimes out of desperation. People did actually plead guilty.

Since you state that some did 'commit crimes out of desperation', you can no doubt tell us who the guilty or innocent ones are out of this situation?

As for pleading 'guilty', people react in different ways...

Some may take a lesser sentence because they can't stand the strain of a trial and a probable harsher 'punishment' even knowing they are innocent...

Others may decide to say 'f*ck you' and take their chances...

Are you suggesting that everyone who pleads guilty in court is actually guilty?

 

[Doug99]

An IT provider will construct and field test a software programme to deliver a 'product' in accordance with the customer requirement. If, after the software has been fully issued for use and 'new bugs' are noted, it is up to the customer to report the bugs to the IT provider for review and correction. If Fujitzu were not formally informed of these 'bugs' the scandal lies with the customer ie the Post Office.

History shows that a modern destroyer suffered significant propulsion defects when it was operating in the Gulf. The build contract did not specify in detail that the ship was to maintain 100% operational capability in hot climates. The MOD (UK taxpayers) paid lots of ££ to fix the problem.

 

[Doug99]

There is an interesting reader's letter in today's Daily Mail. In 1980 (pre Horizon) a postmaster was audited and a £3000 shortfall in the account was noted. Despite the postmaster's protests and no evidence of fraud/theft presented, he was forced to repay the money and sack a staff member. 12 months later when he retired, the final audit identified a £3000 surplus!!! The PO refused to re-investigate the previous shortfall and kept the surplus.

It seems there has been a culture of 'no blame PO' since well before Horizon.

The current scandal could just be the tip of a very big iceberg about to take down the PO, if other postmasters choose to go public.

 

[transam]

Those who had there convictions quashed think it was 90 odd ???

50 afaik did not have there convictions quashed or over turned ???

Dunno why ??

 

[motorbiking]

Those who had there convictions quashed think it was 90 odd ???

50 afaik did not have there convictions quashed or over turned ???

Dunno why ??

hopefully not because they couldn't get good legal advice

Since you state that some did 'commit crimes out of desperation', you can no doubt tell us who the guilty or innocent ones are out of this situation?

As for pleading 'guilty', people react in different ways...

Some may take a lesser sentence because they can't stand the strain of a trial and a probable harsher 'punishment' even knowing they are innocent...

Others may decide to say 'f*ck you' and take their chances...

Are you suggesting that everyone who pleads guilty in court is actually guilty?

I am not for one moment suggesting their Guilty verdict should stand. Some of the confessions and guilty pleas were due to threats of more serious criminal charges. In many cases there was no basis for the more serious criminal charges. So that in itself is perverting the course of justice.

I am suggesting that the standard position in law is that someone who pleads guilty to a crime has no right of appeal on the basis of innocence. It's a more complex process to get the guilty plea "vacated" and have a re-trial. Pleading guilty under threat of more serious prosecution for charges that have no merit is an example, but it needs resources to sort this mess out.

Our criminal justice system is not set up to bulk cancel 700 wrongful prosecutions.

 

[ellal]

Those who had there convictions quashed think it was 90 odd ???

50 afaik did not have there convictions quashed or over turned ???

Dunno why ??

Hourly rates of their lawyers maybe?

A corporate entity/public body doesn't have to worry about such things of course...

And guess who paid for the prosecution lawyers

 

[transam]

Hourly rates of their lawyers maybe?

A corporate entity/public body doesn't have to worry about such things of course...

And guess who paid for the prosecution lawyers

Yes exactly good point

Rotten system from top to bottom

 

[diy_fun_uk]

I fully appreciate this is stating the obvious somewhat, however to think some (33?) of the victims have died in the interim, 4 by suicide, is a sobering thought. To be accused of something you've done is bad and bad enough, however to know you're innocent but still aren't believed must be a burden ten fold.

 

[transam]

Sad part of this
Is that the TV drama revealed nothing that was not already known !!!!! To current and past government ministers ect

 

[Deleted member 174758]

It was a Tory MP that got this on the Radar.

It was Computer Weekly that gotvthis on the radar.

FFS stop blowing the party political agenda - one party's belated "success"* after 14 years of ignominy and failure is hardly something to trumpet. Remember it was a Tory PM who handed the honour to the former head of the PO

 

[ellal]

I am not for one moment suggesting their Guilty verdict should stand. Some of the confessions and guilty pleas were due to threats of more serious criminal charges. In many cases there was no basis for the more serious criminal charges. So that in itself is perverting the course of justice.

I'm glad you accept that their guilty verdicts should not stand.
However I disagree with about what you say about perverting the course of justice in the case of pleading guilty.

Because in order to plead that someone must have taken legal advice/made a decision based on the possible consequences...

Are you suggesting that defence lawyers could be at risk of your claim of perverting the course of justice due to giving advice on the evidence (however corrupt) they had access to?

Or are you saying that the fault lies with the prosecution lawyers who acted on the evidence they were given whether they knew it to be true or not

I am suggesting that the standard position in law is that someone who pleads guilty to a crime has no right of appeal on the basis of innocence.

My bet is a pardon in the first place, then an eventual post election(s) acquittal by which time most of the victims will be dead...

It's the way the system works...

They never admit to failure unless they are forced to, and then they mitigate the political financial losses!

 

[transam]

This drama would never have been made with out journalist nick wallace

Who banged on for years about this caper

 

[Odds]

No I was responding to Odds claim



I didn't see you challenge Odds on the highlighted text. The fact is - it was a Torry MP that championed the cause.

The Justice For Subpostmasters Alliance (JFSA) was formed in 2009 by a small group of Subpostmasters from all around the country who had suffered serious problems with Post Office and its Horizon computer system that had been introduced in 2000. The JFSA has been the workhorse behind the campaign to expose this state sponsored cover up and injustice.

Lord Arbutnot and Andrew Bridgen were among the first mp's to raise the issue in 2012