Need help diagnosing my Seat Ibiza clutch problem

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fhemsworth

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23 Feb 2016
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Country
United Kingdom
Make: Seat
Model: Ibiza FR
Engine size/Type: 2.0 TDI
Year: 2013
Mileage: 30K

Hi all,

A few weeks ago when I got back from holiday, I started up my car and the clutch was extremely soft. The pedal was nearly at the ground, and at the time I figured maybe it was just that I wasn’t used to driving after being away for a few days, but eventually it became clear there was a definite issue.

I brought it to a garage I had not used before to get it diagnosed (as my normal garage was full), and left it with them all day, and by the end of the day they said it was sorted. I went there later to pick it up, and it wasn’t. Clutch was just as soft as before, but I thought I’d give them the benefit of the doubt and give it a day or so to see if it’d sort itself. My guess is they didn’t give themselves enough time to actually test the car properly by driving it. Next day it was just the same, so I called up to get it looked at again. Left it there for another day and night, to which I then picked it up with the clutch feeling quite a bit better.

From what they told me, there were no fluid leaks anywhere in the car from the clutch hydraulics, nor could I smell or see any. I had also brought it to another garage previously who mentioned it could be a leak in the hydraulics, however as there is no fluid escaping into my car, I'm not too sure how air is getting in.

At this stage it was perfectly driveable, however I was noticing that in the mornings (especially cold ones), the clutch was still as soft as before. The problem would quickly sort itself within a few minutes of driving and pumping the clutch however. Obviously at this stage there was still an issue with the clutch, but I couldn’t feel it getting particularly worse. In my simple mind I thought they had maybe solved the issue, but there was still a little air left in the hydraulics which needed to be bled.

So I had the clutch hydraulics bled at my normal garage, and now the problem seems to be even worse! I’m not sure how bleeding it could make it worse, unless if in the process some of the fluid was lost and not replaced? Or maybe some of the seals have gone? Furthermore how can air be getting in the hydraulics, but fluid not be escaping? (if this is in fact the problem)

Please could anyone help me in diagnosing my issue?
 
Well I am completely out of practice laying under cars and squirting brake fluid in my face, but certainly worth checking the master cylinder or slave cylinder piston seal, fluid could be passing from the wet side to the dry but not actually leaking out of the end seal. I suppose another possibility is if there is a flexible pipe somewhere in the line that is dodgy and sort of "ballooning".
Does the level in the master cylinder reserve fall after topping up?
 
If the slave cylinder is faulty, this would eventually manifest itself by fluid leaking out which would eventually show up on the ground. However, this doesn't apply to the master cylinder which can internally leak within itself, so that would be my diagnosis.
These systems can be damned awkward to bleed, and its necessary to pressurise the fluid reservoir before opening the bleed nipple - if indeed that's visible. Usually the clutch shares the same reservoir as the brakes on these.
(Nice car! 140 BHP, 6 speed transmission?)
John :)
 
Thank you for the quick responses. That's 3 people I've had tell me its possibly a problem with the master cylinder, I will definitely make sure to mention that when I next take it in.

Footprints - I believe when I last took it in they mentioned they had actually changed some seals in the slave cylinder in an attempt to fix the suspected leak, as well as changing the breather which I'm pretty sure made no difference (Looks like this). He mentioned it had cracked, but when I brought it home and had a better look, to me it appeared in perfect condition, and the problem wasn't fixed so got it refunded.

I've not heard anything about the tubing being faulty, but sounds like if that was the case it would be a much cheaper fix! I'll keep it in mind. I'm not sure if the master cylinder reserve falls after topping it up, would this be something I can check myself without having to take anything out of the car?

Burnerman - Since reading what you've mentioned it's definitely seeming more like a problem with the master cylinder. I've had absolutely no signs of fluid leaking as of yet, and its been a problem for over a month now. Also the previous garage I took it to said they changed the seals in the salve cylinder as well as bleeding the hydraulics, so its further pointing towards a problem in the master cylinder since the issue is still there.

Assuming that is the problem, and the master cylinder is leaking within itself, how long would you expect it takes to replace this part? For someone who doesn't know a whole lot about car repairs, is it at all something I could tackle over a weekend? I've booked an appointment in at the Seat garage on the 14th of March (earliest they can fit me in), to which they gave me an estimate over the phone that it could cost up to 500 if they have to remove the clutch + 45 for diagnosis. Is this a realistic price for a problem such as this? I've found replacement Master Cylinders for around 40-50 online.

And thanks John! I've enjoyed it up until now, nippy little thing. 140BHP & 6 Speed indeed. Need to fix it though as am looking to sell, I just ordered myself a 2016 Focus ST-2! :)
 
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Thinking outside the box for a moment.

There must be a flexi near the slave cylinder so a clamp on that and depress clutch pedal, how does it feel - solid or is there any slight movement, sinking feeling, which I would have thought would be there if master cylinder seals were letting by.

For scenario of seal letting by slightly and when pedal released allowing ingress of air press hard on clutch pedal, with clamp on flexi still in place, and release. Repeat this 10 or 20 times and does the 'feel' of pedal change at all? Is it a bit more spongy?
 
I'm not sure I'm following you Alan. How would I go about clamping the flexi hose? Do you mean literally just clamp it to something to stop any movements?

Currently if I've not driven my car for a few hours, and I press on the clutch, it will sink right to the bottom and only give me like 1-2 inches of pressure, which isn't enough to even get the car into gear. To get over this I have to pump the clutch about 15-20 times which then makes it feel like new again. After a few minutes of driving it will often soften up again and drop a few inches depending how much I change gear while driving, which in turn pumps the clutch hardening it up again.

I'm not sure if its just me imagining it, but I get the feeling that when the car is riding the clutch and about to conk out or need to change gear, the clutch gets soft really quick. Could this be from the increased vibrations the car produces when it's at that stage?

Thanks
 
fhemsworth said:
I'm not sure I'm following you Alan. How would I go about clamping the flexi hose? Do you mean literally just clamp it to something to stop any movements?
Click to expand...
Use a 'C' clamp or similar. You are trying to squeeze the pipe to prevent any fluid flowing through it.
 
Aah, I think I understand you. So if there was a clamp blocking the hose between the slave and the master cylinders, and assuming the problem was indeed in the master, you would expect it to still be spongy when pressing the clutch as a result of the failing seals in the master? However if the master was fine, and there was a clamp blocking the hose, you should expect it to stay hard as the seals are doing their job and only letting you push the clutch pedal as far as the hydraulics let you?
 
fhemsworth said:
I'm not sure I'm following you Alan. How would I go about clamping the flexi hose? Do you mean literally just clamp it to something to stop any movements?

Currently if I've not driven my car for a few hours, and I press on the clutch, it will sink right to the bottom and only give me like 1-2 inches of pressure, which isn't enough to even get the car into gear. To get over this I have to pump the clutch about 15-20 times which then makes it feel like new again. After a few minutes of driving it will often soften up again and drop a few inches depending how much I change gear while driving, which in turn pumps the clutch hardening it up again.

I'm not sure if its just me imagining it, but I get the feeling that when the car is riding the clutch and about to conk out or need to change gear, the clutch gets soft really quick. Could this be from the increased vibrations the car produces when it's at that stage?

Thanks
Click to expand...
Safest way is with a pukka tool this sort of thing loads around.
http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/tools/hand-tools/laser-hose-clamp
 
If the master cylinder is feeling grumpy, presumably it takes a few pumps of the pedal to disengage the clutch - or you'll get a crunch when you engage gear?
Also, if the master cylinder seals are leaking back on themselves, there's a chance that the car would eventually start moving on its own - in gear, of course!
The master cylinder should be simple enough to replace, but the slave cylinder not so - its gearbox off I'm afraid, hence the expense.
John :)
 
Burnerman said:
If the master cylinder is feeling grumpy, presumably it takes a few pumps of the pedal to disengage the clutch - or you'll get a crunch when you engage gear?
Click to expand...

Exactly. It got so bad at one point, that I had to physically pull the clutch pedal back up with my foot when pumping it to be able to take it out of gear and start the car.

Anyways, it's definitely sounding more and more like its the master and not the slave cylinder that has the problem... at least I hope. Glad I didn't go ahead and get the whole gearbox removed just yet. Think I'd be ok buying a second hand brake master cylinder to replace it? I didn't mention it before, but my car has a shared reservoir for the brakes and clutch. Will this cause any more difficulties in changing the part? I was quoted about £210 for labour and parts at my local garage for the master cylinder replacement, but could of course bring that way down If I did it myself or bought the part myself second hand.

That also leads me on to another question: If the brakes and clutch both share the same master cylinder, why are the brakes still absolutely fine? Also, if I do replace the Master Cylinder, should I buy one with a servo? or just the cylinder and attach it to my current one?

Thanks!
 
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The clutch just uses the same hydraulic fluid supply....so long as the level doesn't get ridiculously low due to leakage, nothing will be adversely affected. Avoid the fluid running out when the job is being done!
Personally I wouldn't go for a second hand master cylinder - and definitely not if it was the brakes affected - but you should be ok. For replacement its simply replace one for the other - there's no servo involved.
I cant comment on how the cylinder operating rod connects to the pedal though, but I think its just a plastic bush. Access is likely to be the biggest problem here!
John :)
 
I did a similar job on a seat Alhambra, the master cylinder was up under the dash at the top of the pedal and a complete nightmare to do!
Seems like a very common fault on a lot of models.
 
I have a feeling it will be pretty much the same as the Golf, from what I hear the car probably has 90-95% VW parts in it, and has the same shell as a Polo (i think). I saw a video of a guy replacing the master cylinder in his VW Passat and the whole pedal would just come out with the cylinder. If it is one that's removed with the pedal, would that be an easier fix than the traditional way?

I love the idea of fixing it myself and saving money, but am really not equipped enough in case anything goes wrong. May just have to go via the garage.
 
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