New light fitting - Please tell me if its safe?

[Matt0689]

Hi All,

DIYer here, no real knowledge as an electrician.

Was just trying to fit a new light in my landing and I am doing so on the rose that has a lot of wires coming from it.

Rather than taking the rose off and trying to wire up a new light with a junction box myself (as this would probably go wrong) I simply cut off the old light and wired the live and neutral into the new one. I then screwed the bracket under the old rose (still wired up as was) and secured the new fitting with everything inside.

Inside the fitting there is a lot of slack wire from the light as it is designed to be quite long if you want it to be and we didn't. So I am slightly concerned that all this is pressed up against the wires from the rose.

Hopefully the images attached show what I have done clearly.

Please can somebody let me know if this is passable as safe, if it isn't I will have to fork out for an electrician as I don't feel confident wiring up a new junction box myself.

Also, I have the old plastic cover for the previous rose, I could try and fit that in as well to protect the wires - if that would make a difference.

Thanks, Matt.

 

[terryplumb]

Is that black cover that's housing everything metal , and the bracket below the rose too ?
It's a right bodge in my opinion !

 

[Matt0689]

Is that black cover that's housing everything metal , and the bracket below the rose too ?
It's a right bodge in my opinion !

Yes both metal…

 

[terryplumb]

It really needs the wiring moved to above the ceiling and fitted into a suitable junction box with a flex from the JB to the light fittings terminal block.

 

[Matt0689]

It really needs the wiring moved to above the ceiling and fitted into a suitable junction box with a flex from the JB to the light fittings terminal block.

Yeah - trouble is I don’t know how to do that .

I know this isn’t ideal, but could it be dangerous is my question

 

[terryplumb]

Pay someone to do it for you if you are not comfortable to work on it. It's not as safe as it should be as it is . And if that fitting carries the double insulation mark ( which is a square within a square symbol) ,what you have done is totally unacceptable.

 

[Matt0689]

Fair enough thanks mate.

Please could you tell me what type of junction box to get - ideally one that has a fairly simple layout so I can just copy the current rose like for like?

 

[terryplumb]

Is above the ceiling a loft ,and will the junction box be accessible in the future ,without the need of any tools ?
If it isn't accessible the junction box needs to be a different type called maintenance free.
Is there a second light fitting that operates simultaneously with the one in the pic ?
There appears to be a recently added cable connected into the rose ,just curious !

 

[Matt0689]

It can be accessed through the loft, but I wouldn’t say it’s easy to get to, hard to explain but basically it’s a very old house and it’s a pain to get up there.

And yes, had a builder/joiner do some work last year which involved adding an additional light at the other end of the landing.

 

[conny]

There seems to be a single rubber sheathed cable going to the switched live terminal on the right of the loop block. The one with the tape on it.
I think you really should get a proper electrician in to do it correctly. It will save you worrying about it because afterwards he should give you a certificate to state it has been installed correctly.
Shouldn't cost too much but safety and peace of mind is priceless.

 

[plugwash]

It can be accessed through the loft, but I wouldn’t say it’s easy to get to, hard to explain but basically it’s a very old house and it’s a pain to get up there.

And yes, had a builder/joiner do some work last year which involved adding an additional light at the other end of the landing.

Personally I'd just get a hager/ashley J804. Covers all the bases and is simple to use.

Please can somebody let me know if this is passable as safe

In general when designing electrical equipment, there are two approaches to protection from electric shock. As a general rule the goal is to make equipment "single fault safe", that is it should not become dangerous even after a single fault develops.

The traditional approach to single fault safety (Class 1) is to rely on a combination of earthing and "basic insulation". If the basic insulation fails, either due to actual material failure of the insulation, or (more likely) though a wire coming loose it touches the metal. This causes a high current to flow which trips a breaker.

The other approach (Class 2) is to rely on "double or reinforced insulation". In general this means either two layers of insulation or one layer that is more robust than normal, but it also means considering other types of fault, if a wire comes loose and touches a metal case then it doesn't matter how good the insulation is, so restraint of wiring is as important as the actual insulation.

If the enclosure is plastic then that can count as one of the layers of insulation, but if the enclosure is metal then it obviously can't. So metal-cased class 2 equipment will generally require secondary enclosure around any mains wiring.

The term "Class 0" is used to reffer to equipment that is not single fault safe. Such equipment is not supposed to be made/sold anymore in most developed countries, though i'm sure there is lots of vintage equipment still around that by modern standards would be cosnidered "class 0".

Your light fitting appears to be Class 2.

The problem with metal class 2 light fittings is that their wiring arrangements almost invaribally suck. To maintain the Class 2 status of the item the outer sheath of the supply wiring needs to be enclosed in the supplied terminal box. That is generally only possible though if the light fitting is fed by a single cable. Such fittings are therefore highly likely to be installed in a manner that renders them effectively class 0 and not up to modern safety standards.

Having said that, a light fitting on the ceiling is in the grand scheme of things relatively low risk, even if it is class 0. I suspect this is why we have not seen any attempt to get light fitting manufacturers to clean up their act.

Also, I have the old plastic cover for the previous rose, I could try and fit that in as well to protect the wires - if that would make a difference.

If it wasn't for the metal braket behind the rose I would say that was safe enough, but given that ceiling roses typically have no cable restraint, I don't think an unearthed metal bracket behind one could be considered to meet class 2 standards.

 

[RandomGrinch]

Personally I'd just get a hager/ashley J804. Covers all the bases and is simple to use.

I've also been happy with these:

Greenbrook Lighting Connector

A 3-pole 20A lighting connector for quick and efficient fitting of multiple downlights and lighting fixtures. With its simple lock-and-release system, it’s so easy to wire up and connect – and just as easy to disconnect when maintenance is required. Suitable for a wide variety of connecting...

www.toolstation.com

...although not maintenance free - a slightly bigger hole in the ceiling may be required.

The problem with metal class 2 light fittings is that their wiring arrangements almost invaribally suck.

Some IKEA fittings have a metal case, but this has a plastic lining, maintaining the Class II, even if terminal strips are used.
Although I doubt this fitting has a lining, given the fully enclosed connection block.

 

[ericmark]

I have had RCD protection since around 1992, and if there was a stray filament from a wire which makes some thing live, likely it would trip the RCD. However this was not the case with my father-in-laws house, and I did get quite a belt when the cowling over the lamp became live. Just one strand had touched the cowl.

In the main we simply don't touch the lights, and before 1966 it stated a lamp mounted at such a height that they cannot readily be touched and are out of reach of earthed metal did not need an earth, but people were getting shocks so now the rules only allow a lampholder having no exposed-conductive-parts and suspended from such a point to not have an earth wire.

There are all sorts of rules which should ensure safety, like as electricians we can't use aluminium step ladders, but many of the safety features are being eroded, the fact that bulbs are no longer hot, so we can change while powered up for example.

The idea is if some thing was safe in 1960 and nothing has changed, it still safe now, but things have changed, so you have to update the installation to suit modern equipment.

 

[Matt0689]

Thanks for your input all, this makes sense. The light is high up on the ceiling so it’s never going to be touched. But for good practice I think a JB is the way forward.

If I get that “hager/ashley J804” I’m assuming it’s fairly straight forward. Would I be correct in saying I put all the blue wires from the “N” on the rose into one terminal, the earth wires in one, the two red “loop” wires in one and all the “L” wires in one. Then I run a blue from the “N” terminal and a red from the “L” terminals into the little box provided by the new fancy light?

Apologies if that is written in very simple terms, as said before I’m no electrician, but essentially I am matching it up like for like?

Cheers

 

[terryplumb]

You pretty much are correct ,other than the colours. For instance the flex would have brown and blue ( not red and blue)
The neutral terminal has 2 black and 2 blue ( not all blues)