Part P/certificates on completion of job

[olly330]

Hello,

Have had some major works done on my mums property by a builder including electrics, the builder has used a NICEIC electrician to do the work. The work included fitting a new consumer unit and ring mains around the house, works in bathroom, downlights, outside lighting, kitchen electrics, etc….

The agreement with the builder was that he would supply me with the relevant electrical certificates at the end of the job.

I am a bit concerned that once the final payment is made which will be very soon (£20k job) that the builder will have no interest in getting me the paperwork, so I want to ensure I do things right before payment is made, had bad experiences in the past once final payments are made.

I need to understand what certificates exactly I should be getting, and if I should be getting them at the same time as making payment or if its normal for them to arrive later - such as if the electrician needs to apply for them from the body first.

From reading online it’s a total head banger, I have worked out that there are 'electrical installation certificates' and 'part p certificates'. I am not sure if an 'electrical installation certificate' will also cover the part p bit and therefore I don’t need a separate part p bit, or if I need both a part p cert and an electrical installation cert?

I have a feeling the builder is going to want payment immediately on final day of job and say that the certificates need to be sent from NICEIC and will take a few weeks - I would rather pay upon having the certs in my hand but if this is going to take a few weeks then I will have to work this out with the builder.

Thankyou in advance for helping me clear this up

 

[EFLImpudence]

Firstly,

You should receive form the Electrician in a reasonable time - couple of days or posting time:
An Electrical Installation Certificate,
A Schedule of Inspections, and
A Schedule of Test Results.

So don't pay (all of it) until you get these, they are part of the job.
If "The agreement with the builder was that he would supply me with the relevant electrical certificates at the end of the job" then he can't complain, can he?

Then, after a couple of weeks or so, either:
A Certificate of Completion from the Local Authority, OR
A Certificate of Compliance from NECEIC if the electrician is a member.

There is no such thing as a Part P certificate.
Part P is a Building Regulation which states that electrical work shall be done to ensure it is safe (words to that effect).

 

[Taylortwocities]

[GALLERY=media, 98054]Whssign by Taylortwocities posted 16 Jul 2016 at 12:13 PM[/GALLERY]

 

[olly330]

Firstly,

You should receive form the Electrician in a reasonable time - couple of days or posting time:
An Electrical Installation Certificate,
A Schedule of Inspections, and
A Schedule of Test Results.

So don't pay (all of it) until you get these, they are part of the job.
If "The agreement with the builder was that he would supply me with the relevant electrical certificates at the end of the job" then he can't complain, can he?

Then, after a couple of weeks or so, either:
A Certificate of Completion from the Local Authority, OR
A Certificate of Compliance from NECEIC if the electrician is a member.

There is no such thing as a Part P certificate.
Part P is a Building Regulation which states that electrical work shall be done to ensure it is safe (words to that effect).

Thanks for that. Builder keeps pestering and reminding me about money.... He has been a pain all along trying to make me pay before stages are fully complete saying about how moneys tight and he's losing out on the job and the missing bits on stages are only minor (not minor to me) ..... so I know once the electrics are finished he is going to say I need to pay as 'its only a bit of paperwork to come' etc etc....


So would I be pretty ok for house resale etc once I have these 3 that you kindly pointed out:
1. An Electrical Installation Certificate,
2. A Schedule of Inspections, and
3. A Schedule of Test Results.
And can these 3 just be written up by the electrician with no need to wait for anything coming back from NICEIC?

Or should I also be waiting for the certificate from NICEIC before releasing the full and final payment?

 

[EFLImpudence]

Thanks for that. Builder keeps pestering and reminding me about money....

Pester back.

So would I be pretty ok for house resale etc once I have these 3 that you kindly pointed out:
1. An Electrical Installation Certificate,
2. A Schedule of Inspections, and
3. A Schedule of Test Results.

You should or will have the Certificate of Completion from NICEIC as well.

And can these 3 just be written up by the electrician with no need to wait for anything coming back from NICEIC?

Yes.

Or should I also be waiting for the certificate from NICEIC before releasing the full and final payment?

Well, I suppose you could if you don't trust anyone.

Do you know the name of the electrician? Is he here?

https://www.niceic.com/householder/find-a-contractor
or
https://www.competentperson.co.uk/

 

[olly330]

Thing is, builder said that electrics will be finished by next week and he would want paying for this stage, he seems to think the electrician will have all the paperwork and certificates ready but I have my doubts.

No building control involved so I guess the certificate of completion from local authority is not applicable.

I do know the name of the company doing the electrics and they are on the NICEIC site which s good to know. If the electrician does have ready 1. An Electrical Installation Certificate, 2. A Schedule of Inspections 3. A Schedule of Test Results by next week then I guess it's reasonable to pay for this stage then and hope the certificate of compliance from NICEIC turns up, as if I withold payment until the certificate of compliance from NICEIC turns up I would think the builder would down tools and not finished the project .

 

[Notch7]

I wonder if sometimes the electrician doesnt release the paperwork until he is paid. If the builder pays his subbies slowly, they might want a lever.

On the other hand, a builder that pushes his customers for prompt payment, might pay his bills on the nail.

Dont feel bullied into paying your final bill. Im not saying withholding money for trivial snagging, but make sure everything is complete.....it should be practical completion. A compromise where a few minor things are to be done, that fall under the 'oh yes, I will pop back and do xyz on Tues' is to hold a small amount back.

If the job is under building regs, you def want the final cert before your final payment.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Thing is, builder said that electrics will be finished by next week and he would want paying for this stage, he seems to think the electrician will have all the paperwork and certificates ready but I have my doubts.

Ok, but the electrical work is not finished until the cerficate and two schedules are received.
Builder is unlikely to pay electrician in advance.

No building control involved so I guess the certificate of completion from local authority is not applicable.

No. Just NICEIC, then.

I do know the name of the company doing the electrics and they are on the NICEIC site which s good to know.

Yes, it is.

If the electrician does have ready 1. An Electrical Installation Certificate, 2. A Schedule of Inspections 3. A Schedule of Test Results by next week then I guess it's reasonable to pay for this stage then and hope the certificate of compliance from NICEIC turns up,

Yes.

as if I wit

hold payment until the certificate of compliance from NICEIC turns up

No. Don't do that.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No. Don't do that.

Yes. Do that.

Until the certificates (an EIC for the electrical work, and a Building Regulations completion certificate for the building works, including confirmation that the electrical work complied with Part P) then the work is not finished.

Why would you pay for an unfinished job?

 

[charliegolf]

When I had a single job done, The electrician sat at the kitchen table and filled out the form, gave me my copy and got his dosh. It was a small, notifiable job. Could the OP simply ask the builder to get the leccy to do the same thing as a precurser to payment?

 

[ericmark]

I had problems even when holding money back, clearly did not hold enough back. In my case a wet room, I wrongly assumed builder done everything correct, so when he walked out I informed LABC I wanted to take over the job.

It was only then I found out that planning was required to change use of room, even from toilet to wet room, and the RSJ and drains all needed inspecting by LABC and it is down to home owner not builder to tell them, although most builders do it for the home owner. I thought it was only the Part P bit I needed.

Do check if work needs LABC notifying, I was lucky, due to work being for the disabled no charge.

As to electrics, the forms have to be given to person ordering the work, that is the builder not you, so electrician gives them to builder, then he gives them to you. So you pay when he gives you the forms.

It has to be that way as if LABC involved he needs to show them the compliance certificate in order to get the completion certificate.

 

[Adam_151]

I would say its more than reasonable to wait untill you have the EIC (complete with the schedules which form part of it*) in your hand, however its not reasonable to expect it at the kitchen table, if the guy doing the work is not the QS of the firm, then it will have to go back to him to cast his eye over it, some contractors like to provide typed certs, a copy needs to be retained (quite often done with NCR paper if using the likes of hand written certs - but if it was forms photocopied out of the BS7671 then it would need to be photocopied or scanned once complete)

As to the building regs sign off, sometimes these can take a while, I think it is more reasonable to ask for an assurance that its been submitted (backed up with a screen grab showing the confirmation of it being submitted if need be) Once submitted the contractor has been charged for notification and its out of his hands, if the processes of the registration schemes or the LABC are slow, it would be unfair for this to delay the contractor being payed when they have done all that they are required to do.

*EFLI is referenicing the blank forms in the back of the British standard, where you have an EIC and then schedules, which it must be accompanied by, however the NICEIC pads its generally one document entitled electrical instalaltion certificate, it still includes the schedules (as it must) but these are part of the EIC document under a sub heading, so be careful if you think you have recieved an EIC minus the schedules before kicking off....

 

[ericmark]

From memory there is a legal limit of two weeks from completion to getting the paperwork, waiting two weeks for final payment is not unreasonable.

Safety wise there should never be a point when it is unsafe, however in the real world we would not want freezer switching off for a few days waiting for inspection and testing, so power is often returned before it technically should be.

However one would hope if an inspector finds a fault we would correct or isolate not simply write down the fault, so once inspected then really the paperwork is not that important.

 

[olly330]

Thankyou for all the replies.

So to clarify, I think the following is correct:

1. At job end, Electrician himself writes up the electrical installation cert which should be accompanied with schedule of schedule of inspections and schedule of test results. When these docs are in my hand I will pay the majority of the payment to the builder

2. Electrician goes home and sends notification to NICEIC, so that it gets 'notified' as complying with part p regulation (very important document if I ever need to sell the house in future). NICEIC registers it and sends me out a certificate of compliance. At a rough guess, the certificate should arrive to me in about 2 weeks from the electrician sending it in, so I will hold back a small amount and release it once I have this notification certificate.Once I get it, all certificates are issued as per contract between me and builder so I would definitely pay the total amount by then.

I think this would be fair to both of us.

 

[JohnW2]

... NICEIC registers it and sends me out a certificate of compliance. At a rough guess, the certificate should arrive to me in about 2 weeks from the electrician sending it in, so I will hold back a small amount and release it once I have this notification certificate. ....

As I think has been said, it would seem fair to pay the electrician in full once he has provided documentary evidence that he has notified the work to NICIEC - and unfair to withhold final payment to the electrician in the event of slowness on the part of NICIEC (over which the electrician has no control, once he has notified them).

Kind Regards, John