Patio nightmare, professional opinions please

[MCH87]

Right...

We've had a patio laid by a "professional builder" I'm not going to get into naming and shaming or any of that, unfortunately it appears to have been a not so professional outcome...

The patio is laid in part onto a concrete slab (put in place for a garden building) with the remainder laid onto soil...

The manufacturers guidelines have not been followed (we subsequently downloaded them to check) and we are already having issues only some 2 weeks after install.

From what we saw of the installation and what is visible the slabs were laid onto 50mm or there abouts of a sand/cement bed directly onto the concrete slab and also directly to soil (with offcuts of some form of DPM ontop of the soil)

Grout is a mix of sand/cement and the builder said he applied a "dye"


A list of the issues we have are below;

• Slabs "sinking"
• Joins are wildly varying sizes (from almost none to 30mm and over).
• "Grout" is a poor mix of sand/cement, crumbles, colour is bleeding and water just soaks through.
• Multiple slabs sound "hollow" and there is an increasing number.
• The laying pattern which we supplied when asked has not been followed.
• No drainage was added surrounding the garden building causing damp issues
• Fleets are all over the place.
• Grout "wetness" seems to go way beyond where rainfall has caused, we suspect a lot of water underneath the slabs.
  
  I have uploaded some videos to youtube;

(patio slabs sounding hollow, not the best video)

(patio grout crumbly)

(grout absorbing water)

We have had a few other tradesmen visit who so far have all said the patio needs fully uplifting and re-laying

 

[Charlie George]

Pointing looks like a cheap resin, badly done, most resins are permeable, not enough bedding under hollow flags,or layed on spots,can you not get him back to put it right.

 

[MCH87]

Pointing looks like a cheap resin, badly done, most resins are permeable, not enough bedding under hollow flags,or layed on spots,can you not get him back to put it right.

We asked him back to discuss some of the issues (the garden building water issues) and we expressed that we weren't happy... He said he'd rectify it but argued about some of the points, also his suggestions to rectify when the other trades have attended they said no don't do that...

He basically wants to put a massive amount of grout at a slant up against the building...

The grout is literally just sand/cement/dye mixed in a bucket

Since having more people in, they've all said the portion that is off the concrete slab should have had compacted hardcore (it didn't) and that because of the hollow slabs and all the issues over only 2 weeks that it just needs completely re-doing.

One in particular said he wouldn't recommend we have the same builder (we've not disclosed who did the job to any of them) and would advise legal action due to how bad the job is, he basically said whoever had done it was clearly not capable of doing a good job.

 

[Ian H]

The different joint sizes is because of the slabs. On the first video you see these:

2 and 3 together with the correct gap should equal the same length as 1 but they never would. 1 is too short or 2/3 are too long. You could measure to check, 1 should be 900mm, 2 290mm and 3 600mm.

The pointing looks like it went in dry which never works.

 

[MCH87]

I'm not sure if the photo's I uploaded have shown...

The joints don't seem to serve a purpose in terms of width to allow for the size variation in slabs, it seems more lack of care in installation... there is one slab in particular that appears to have been laid on the wonk, with one corner almost touching the next slab and then the other end with a gap of 10mm+
Had he taken care, where the joints vary there would be some visible attempt to align slabs evenly which hasn't been done. He's also ignored the manufacturers pattern layout (we printed this out)

Jointing was from what we saw a sand/cement mix with cementone dye... no waterproofer has been added as it acts like a giant sponge and sucks in any water... also the dye is coming out of the mortar and staining the slabs...

Slabs are in 5 sizes

855 x 570
570 x 570
570 x 425
570 x 285
285 x 285

Manufacturer states joints to be 10mm - 15mm

We randomly have 9 of the 285 x 285 left over along with offcuts of larger slabs and a full 15.83m2 pack (we bought extra to ensure we kept the pattern but he over estimated the square meterage needed)

All in all I think the builder should be ashamed of himself if I'm honest.

 

[Ian H]

I can see the pictures and he has done a crap job. There shouldn’t be voids under it, the pointing should be hard and I’m not sure what he has some with the soil/membrane thing.

With those sizes the joint sizes are always going to be hard. If you have a 285 and a 570 against an 855 where are you going to find your 10/15mm joint without making the next one 20/30mm?

 

[MCH87]

the soil, he literally just cut up bits of DPM plastic sheeting and made a patchwork over the area, I'm not sure it covered the whole area and no effort was made to use jointing tape to make sure it actually made a sealed barrier.

He's since been back, laughed off the fact we had a list of faults compiled from 4 separate companies/individuals and basically said he'll rectify the water feature that will not function due to the way he's built it, but what he's said he'll do sounds like a complete and utter bodge up when all the others have said he's sloped the paving away too much (60mm+ drop over 4 meters) so it'll never work without a rip up and re-do.

Its the fact that even the slabs on laid ontop of the concrete slab are completely hollow

 

[Ian H]

Plastic sheeting is just wrong. I put mine over clay but used a weed control membrane that water can get through.

still had trouble with the joints though

 

[MCH87]

it was this stuff

https://www.screwfix.com/p/capital-...amp-proof-membrane-black-1200ga-15-x-4m/59191

a very plastic feeling sheeting... but like I say there was no jointing tape like I'm led to believe you should use with DPM

 

[MCH87]

also posted on

http://ext.pavingexpert.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=2&t=15290

and have uploaded photos to there...

 

[denso13]

also posted on

I think we all agree it is a poor job and needs redone. I'm not sure what other advice you need.

 

[MCH87]

Well I'm trying to get plenty of info as he's laughed off all the issues when presented to him.

So I think to rectify it we'll need to get properly worded reports from professionals and take legal action...

 

[Ian H]

I’ve never seen a waterproof membrane below any kind of paving.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Have you paid him? If so, why when he clearly and obviously had not fulfilled the contract (the laying pattern).
I'm assuming you didn't have a written detailed quote from him, likewise you didn't detail in writing how you wanted the job done (why would you).
The only solution is lift the whole lot and do it again properly. If he won't do this then take some pictures, evidence his refusal (email or text is favourite) and Small Claims a go go.

 

[Celeronmanuk]

when all the others have said he's sloped the paving away too much (60mm+ drop over 4 meters)

Riven sandstone is generally specified 1:60 or 1:80 fall. So 60mm over 4m is closer to 1:60 which is fine though noticeable.

Plastic DPM under a patio, what was he thinking! The job is dreadful, it needs pulling up While it's encouraged to let the person fix it in the first instance. I can't see the point here, the person is clearly not going to provide good workmanship.