Snow chains?

[AdamW]

Right, so the last couple of winters have been particularly bitter up here. Never had to drive in snow until I moved up here, first time managed to broadside a kerb. In all fairness the car was virtually stationary, it wasn't the snow that did it, it was the ice under the snow.

Are snowchains any good in the slushy ice that forms after people drive over the snow?

I'm thinking about buying a pair (you only put them on the driving wheels I believe) but see no point in spending £55 if they don't have any effect on the icey sh*te.

 

[david and julie]

Honestly speaking I have never tried or even needed them in the UK, but I suppose they must use them in the Highlands.

I believe you only put them on in snow and then take them off on clear (salted) roads, I don't think you are supposed to leave them on for the duration. They are also quite awkward and cold/dirty things too.

If you only put them on the front you would obviously grip better but would you go a**e about face easier?

Do you really need such things where you live?

I seem to recall there used to be a nylon/rubber alternative, they were not as quite good(but better than nothing) which could be left on.

 

[2scoops0406]

I have to agree, that would surely be a waste of £55 Hertfordshire / London, doesn't really qualify for snow chains But on a more serious note, the ability to switch off the ABS braking is much more useful. ABS in the snow is about as good as a chocolate teapot ! Right now I've said, were bound to get a few feet of snow

 

[chainsaw_masochist]

Right, so the last couple of winters have been particularly bitter up here. Never had to drive in snow until I moved up here, first time managed to broadside a kerb. In all fairness the car was virtually stationary, it wasn't the snow that did it, it was the ice under the snow.

Are snowchains any good in the slushy ice that forms after people drive over the snow?

I'm thinking about buying a pair (you only put them on the driving wheels I believe) but see no point in spending £55 if they don't have any effect on the icey sh*te.

Yes, well those winters in Vatican City can be intense! Seriously though, I would not consider snowchains in the South East of England 'cos the weather conditions change like the traffic lights. So on the rare occassions when they might be required, likely as not it will only be for a short duration and your temper will not improve as you take 'em off/put 'em on. Also if you leave them on when they are not required they will probably damage the tread of your tyres - they will certainly damage the road surface! I used to use them quite a bit when I drove down to skiing resorts in the Alps, as the drive up the higher parts in bad weather pretty much makes them compulsory. Also they can be a b*gg*r to put on, though perhaps the newer ones are easier to fix in place.

What is better altogether, and mandatory in the Bavaria, are winter tyres. These are made of a softer compound rubber which adheres much more effectively in icy conditions. Problem is they can only be used on their own wheels 'cos they are narrower and higher profile than the conventional wheel styles of the moment. So you would have to have a second lot of wheels. The downside is that when shod with winter tyres you can't go booting it as you (and I mean you, Adam) do normally. They have a maximum speed of about 80mph and you are meant to go easy when accelerating. Sad, but true!

 

[AdamW]

I'll skip the snowchains then! Was just an idea as they take a few days to get round to gritting round here. Thinking about it, when it snows the traffic all grinds to a halt so I might as well walk home and retrieve the car when things are clearer!

My uncle lives in Canada and they have separate snow tyres there too, and many people have 4x4s. Makes a real difference on snowy hills.

ABS in snow, yes that is rather useless. When it snowed last year I could see in the work car park that a lot of the tyre tracks had a strange rutted effect along their sides, caused by TC and ABS.

 

[AdamW]

Yes, well those winters in Vatican City can be intense!

Tell me about it, you could barely see St Peter's above the drift last year

 

[pipme]

Whoa fellahs !! Now I have commuted 50 m a day over hills and valleys all road types ... ABS. I have found to be the best thing since .. you know what.
We NEVER get any gritting here, hills n'all, couple that with early starts, gave me that path finder, sinking feeling, even frost lingers as ice here!!
First winter with ABS, we had not much, but a covering of snow .. off I toddle to test the brakes in such conditions ... a side road .. covering :- virgin snow, rutted to smooth ice .. the works !!
15 mph slam on and hold ... straight line stop, my experience was telling me I would slide down the camber into verge .. never happened .. never sliding.
I tested to 30 mph... no problems straight line stop each time ... want lock up ? (You really do not want to) easy, ABS has minimum function speed 7 mph my car, slam brakes on, release and slam on again, wheels sense low speed, abs trips out, wheels lock ... you lose control.
I have never felt safer than driving icy roads with ABS.

Chains, done that on a Chevette circa '82 --- I was climbing a snowy hill, chains on, flagged down by descending Police Landrover - "You'll not make it " He proclaims.
Great, have to hill start about 6" or more snow, the old rear wheels spin a little, sink into snow, which compresses under chains, grip is achieved, I drive up the hill relatively easily, (I had descended it, earlier).

The following winter, snowing heavily en route home from work, already have chains on spare, stop, change to spare, fit chains ... Then big mistake.. knowing from experience I can go pretty well anywhere given the snow depth, what do I do ? I head for a main road ... damn, ploughs have been through, pretty clear, now with chains, on next to no snow, calamity!! more than 15 mph chains hitting bodywork ... less than 15mph, everything overtakes, with their nearside wheels in the bank of slushy, mid road, ploughed snow, which is then deposited solid on the side and front of Chevette... opened side window, just avoided the 4 inches of crude left in place of window... nightmare drive 'til I could head off into snowy country lanes again.
Sold the chains after that.
During that day saw a large Renault saloon negotiate the descent of a steep hill with haphazardly parked cars ... just like normal driving ... Saw it was running plastic 'chains' these were actually small, flat, connected plates with studs fitted .. apparently proprietary Renault kit for snowy conditions and good for 35 odd mph. Impressed !
Try fitting chains at the side of an icy road .. precarious .. But with lots of snow, they will help get you around, given body clearance.
I have seen 'singles' which appear to work well, single chains and tensioning straps, 3 to a driven wheel, easy to fit etc.
The perils of country living, and the quest to keep mobile !!
P

 

[2scoops0406]

It is far quicker to stop in snow by pushing up a wall of snow in front of the tyres, this can only be achieved by locking the wheels, I maintain that ABS is worse than useless in snow.

Quote

In what circumstances might conventional brakes have an advantage over ABS?

There are some conditions where stopping distance may be shorter without ABS. For example, in cases where the road is covered with loose gravel or freshly fallen snow, the locked wheels of a non-ABS car build up a wedge of gravel or snow, which can contribute to a shortening of the braking distance.

Source

http://www.abs-education.org/faqs/faqindex.htm

 

[AdamW]

S*d it, I'll buy a snowmobile. Just so long as it is a 50cc I can use the cycle-lane network.

 

[pipme]

Edward, I really have had a go with this ABS, also on graveled forest track (not mentioned as we talked of snow), I was amazed, and reviewing the ground covered, I found lots of skid marks, all of varying but short lengths, the wheels locking was not perceptable during the braking process.
I guess the ability to steer overcomes any shortfall in stopping distance, which I think is probably only present in very few situations .. Being able to stop without sliding is so much safer.
In my experience, fresh snow without underlying ice, is comparitively easy driving.
Snow with ice under is dangerous, even if the tyre pushes a wedge of snow before it, still skates on under ice and slides.
All of this after a load of playing off and on road in the Cooper 'S' all those years ago ... Now if I'd had ABS on that !!!
P

 

[2scoops0406]

Not really disagreeing, just think that the vast majority of people want to stop as quick as possible in a straight line in the snow. In this case it is preferable not to have ABS IMHO. Agree with the bit about steering though, once the wheels are locked, you are going exactly where you are pointing, as they say "Ye canna break the laws of physics"

 

[pipme]

........ Agree with the bit about steering though, once the wheels are locked, you are going exactly where you are pointing, as they say "Ye canna break the laws of physics"

Too true ! and the reality is, you end up going in a direction in which your vehicle ain't pointing .. If you see the point !!
A turning wheel is the crux of directionality on slippery surfaces.
P

 

[AdamW]

The reason I was thinking of this was because of my experience with ice under snow. Turning the last corner to my front door, no more than 3 or 4 mph, hit some re-frozen snow (you know how wetsnow turns to ice after you drive on it?) and the car decided 45 degrees was the best angle and stayed that way. Mounted a kerb with the front wheel parallel to the rather large kerb, and caused mechanics to rub their hands together with glee.

From the outside it looked like it had been fitted with 2CV steering (you know, far too much castor, camber all out of skew)! I had to laugh as it was loaded on to the truck, steering like a 1940s French car!

 

[pipme]

Sometimes, the turn into a skid / slide can yield dramatic results, I remember the GT6 with that big 6 cyl lump in front. I turned in, right hander, on a greasey road, huge understeer ... quickly turned into it then as slowly as poss back again and the drama passed by, the second part was crucial due to the possibility of running out of road.
But then I kow more than a little about understeer from my Mini daze !!

My old methodology in snowy stuff, was to expect, and drive suitably for, the worst. Must have been a good plan ... from '75 to 2003, never failed to get to work or home, once commited .. luckily never hit or got hit by anything either... had just a handful of moments is all.
With 50 mile commute, and no viable public transport ... the serviceable car becomes a necessity .. not least because, when halfway, it was a 12.5 mile hike in either direction !! ... Nice not to be so dependant now.
Nissan just collected car for minor service ... lowest annual mileage ever for me !!! circa 6k miles !!
P

 

[AdamW]

Oh, I'm perfectly savvy with counteracting understeer, pretty much any fwd car won't oversteer until you've got it to understeer first! Fiat Uno for me, no Minis. Pretty much the same weight and bhp as a Mini 1000 though!

But my "incident" was impossibly to halt once it started. Steering wheel in either direction, brakes on, brakes off, handbrake. The only thing I didn't try was jumping out and trying to push it, it was that slow that I almost could have done! The camber and slope of the road combined with the ice carried the car right to the kerb, BANG!

It made me feel better when the following year (i.e. this year) I walked home, and saw the tell tale snowploughs going into and up the kerb. Yes, someone else had done the exact same thing in the exact same place! Also when I got home, every car was totally covered with snow, which meant that no car had made it back by then, they were all either stuck, abandoned or left at work.