Some help/advice required about "damp"

[TatskyPT]

Hi Guys

I wonder if you can help/advise.

We are currently going through the process of a Part Exchange with Barratt homes. They had 2 valuers come out and value our property. They have reported back that there is some damp to the rear of the property, so Barratt have made us a part exchange offer subject to a damp survey. If there is work required, they will reduce their offer (although I am told that they are just covering their backs, and they rarely do reduce the offer. But there is a first time for everything).

Anyway, my query is that there are no signs of damp on the wall reported. Some details:

• The wall is of solid construction
• It is north facing, so get's very little sun. It is cold to the touch.
• The house was renovated 9.5 years ago, every wall in the place re-plastered
• The wall is in the kitchen.
• The decor on the wall is white emulsion. We have never papered it. So it's just a painted wall.
• There is a cupboard containing the boiler and washing machine which is adjacent to this wall. The wall in the cupboard has never been painted (Just never got around to it) so it's bare plaster.
• The wall is dry to the touch, just maybe a bit cold.
• There are no marks, mould spots, tide marks of any kind on the wall
• There is no blown plaster, flaking plaster, flaking paint, anything.
• On visual inspection it looks like an immaculate wall.

The only indication the valuer had of damp was using his moisture meter, which moved up to the upper end of the scale.

I think the "moisture" is just a combination of it being a cold wall, we just had heavy rains so the air is moist, and so we have condensation on the wall. Also, it's a kitchen, containing a regularly boiled kettle, a 5 burner gas hob (I have read burning gas contributes to condensation) and a washing machine with a wife partial to putting the kids school uniforms on the radiator.

If I am not seeing the "typical" damp signs on the wall, which was plastered nearly 10 years ago, can I safely assume it isn't "rising damp"?

I just want to be prepared for the damp survey coming out, as I have read some stories about these people recommending unnecessary DPC work, as that is what they are trying to sell.

If you need any further information about the above let me know.

Thanks

Paul

 

[ree]

Why not post pics of the wall(s) in question from inside the kitchen and outside?

Is the floor solid?

Was the wall plastered in gypsum plaster 10 years ago?

Who do the two valuers represent? Can you quote what they said? Did they use Moisture Meters?

If its still possible dont have any Damp & Timber survey until you have taken advice from here.

 

[^woody^]

Never, ever have a 'damp survey' from an employee or agent of a company that sells damp-proofing remedies. A survey should be carried out by an independent surveyor.

Also be aware that any idiot can put a damp meter on a wall and take a reading. What the idiot can't do, is interpret the reading, and determine if there is a damp problem instead of just damp plaster.

 

[JohnD]

you say you are providing water to the room from wet washing and kettles.

Stop doing that, and add ventilation to remove the humid air.

If you have a domestic fan, and set it to blow air across the surface of the wall, it will increase evaporation. Heat is not required, but you need to ventilate out the water vapour that will be added to the air.

Look outside at the gutter and downpipe in case they are spilling water onto the wall.

 

[TatskyPT]

Hi Guys

I will post pictures, but I am at work at the moment.

The floor is solid I believe. I say believe because the flooring was down when I bought the house and I have never lifted it. However, there are 2 cupboards built into the recesses either side of a chimney breast, and these are floored, and the floor is concrete in these cupboards.

Please note I didn't do the renovation work, we bought the house from a builder who had done all the works.

The walls are plastered in gypsum, i.e. the pink top coat plaster is visible in the unpainted cupboard.

One valuer was from countrywide, the other was an independent instructed by Barratt Homes.

When the independent guy was inspecting it he said the reading on the moisture meter (they both used a moisture meter) was probably nothing to worry about, but he had to mention it in his report. Barratt quote the report they had as saying "signs of damp to the rear of the property".

Barratt are going to organise a damp survey, but they need to contact me to arrange the time first, and as of yet I have heard nothing. My concern is that they instruct a damp company to come out, and that company will be angling for some work, so of course they are going to say a damp proof course is required.

One other note, the builder had the whole property repointed and so it may be that this new mortar is trapping moisture, or rather not allowing moisture to evaporate off the external face?

My understanding of this is (based on my 4 days on the internet) that rising damp can't be diagnosed using a moisture meter reading, and must be diagnosed by first eliminating all other possible causes of damp such as condensation, penetrating damp etc. There seems to be so many other reasons for a high moisture meter reading, i.e. condensation from a moist atmosphere on a cold wall, penetrating damp from driving rain etc

Regarding gutters, the guttering to the front of the property was replaced a couple of years back when heavy snow tore down the old guttering. The rear of the property has not been updated recently, however I don't think there are any leaks, but I will check the next time it rains.

One more point my father made is we have the bins (2 x wheelie) up against the back wall of the house, and he said that possibly they are stopping air circulating and affecting the walls ability to dry out after any heavy rains.

My main concern is that Barratt recruit a local damp specialist to come and look at the issue, and because that specialist is angling for work they state that rising damp is present. In that eventuality, and in the event that Barratt say to me "we want £x,000s from you", I want to be able to able to confidently say no, the damp survey wasn't done by an independant surveyor and the contractor is looking for work, and they haven't demonstrated that all other forms of damp have been eliminated/excluded.

It may be that everything comes back clear, or that Barratt don't look to alter our deal, but I just want to be prepared for all eventualities.

 

[ree]

Presumably, the c/breast recesses are in another room? Simply go outside the kitchen, and look for air bricks at DPC level - look for a Damp Course while you are doing it.

If Barratt want to appoint a D&T surveyor call them and say if a D&T Survey is deemed necessary then you (not them) would like to appoint an Independent Surveyor. See what they say or do?

If it does comes down to you having an Independent Surveyor then instruct him or her to confine their survey to a Limited investigation & Report of the area noted by the Valuers.

The "Independent" who came and valued on Barratt's behalf was probably anything but Independent, and the Countrywide was presumably from your Building Society?

Countrywide too might decide on their D&T survey - however, if nothing has so far transpired then dont disturb them: simply wait and see.

FWIW: An independent D&T surveyor has no affiliation with companies who do the work, or with Real Estate Agents, or Blg Soc's etc - hard to find but they are out there.

 

[TatskyPT]

Presumably, the c/breast recesses are in another room? Simply go outside the kitchen, and look for air bricks at DPC level - look for a Damp Course while you are doing it.

If Barratt want to appoint a D&T surveyor call them and say if a D&T Survey is deemed necessary then you (not them) would like to appoint an Independent Surveyor. See what they say or do?

If it does comes down to you having an Independent Surveyor then instruct him or her to confine their survey to a Limited investigation & Report of the area noted by the Valuers.

The "Independent" who came and valued on Barratt's behalf was probably anything but Independent, and the Countrywide was presumably from your Building Society?

Countrywide too might decide on their D&T survey - however, if nothing has so far transpired then dont disturb them: simply wait and see.

FWIW: An independent D&T surveyor has no affiliation with companies who do the work, or with Real Estate Agents, or Blg Soc's etc - hard to find but they are out there.

Thanks for your help.

The chimney breast is in the same room. Basically there was a chimney in the kitchen as well as the living room. I have scribbled on a quick diagram to show you the position of these cupboards, and where the wall is in relation to them.

Can I specify that I want to appoint the surveyor? Currently Barratts are paying for the survey to be done. I have no idea how much this costs. I am of the opinion that it's not needed and that there is no damp problem, so I am loathed to spend money on it, however, there is this chance that Barratts could want money from me in the long run. I should point out I have heard from other Barratt customers that they had similar issues come up when they part exchanged, but nothing more came of it, so I might just be overly cautious.

The countrywide surveyor was sent out by barratt also. They get 2 valuations, and then take an average of the 2. Both did nothing more than stick a moisture meter on the wall.

I have noted in the diagram that there is an airbrick in the wall, but it is above DPC. This appears to have been a vent, which I believe was required when people had back boilers or open fires? This has been blocked on the inside, but still open on the outside. But when I look into the airbrick I can see the back of the plaster. Nothing has been bricked up or blocked up. This is probably a major cold and damp spot?

I have looked for a damp proof course, but I can't see it. I think this is because when the pointing has been done any visible signs of it has been covered over. Also, I stupidly have decking to the rear which was to make the rear yard useful, but that means the decking is at floor level and the DPC is probably level with it, making it difficult to observe. (I know you're going to ******* me for having decking at floor level, or just having it at all).

 

[JohnD]

It's the outside wall (cold) on the kitchen (steamy)

So it will get condensation.

Get on with ventilating, and stop draping wet washing in there.

Does the old pantry have any ventilation?

 

[TatskyPT]

It's the outside wall (cold) on the kitchen (steamy)

So it will get condensation.

Get on with ventilating, and stop draping wet washing in there.

Does the old pantry have any ventilation?

Yes, cold wall and kitchen is steamy, so I believe it to be condensation.

I have informed the wife to stop drying the washing on the radiator. I have a black eye for my efforts, but she has taken note.

There is no old pantry, do you mean the cupboards in the corners of the room? No, there is no ventilation in those. The one adjacent to the back wall contains the combi boiler and the washing machine. That cupboard does contain cobwebs and dust, and they are bone dry.

I've just had the damp company which Barratt have asked to come out on the phone. They are Peter Cox Building Services. I quizzed the lady on the phone whether they are an independent surveyor, or a contractor. They are a contractor, but she said "it's not in their interest to say work needs doing when it doesn't". I quizzed her about damp meters, and said that in my limited knowledge you can't diagnose damp using only a damp meter. She said that's how they do it, and the damp meter gives a threshold reading which indicates what type of damp it is. But she said they look for other signs of damp.

This will be interesting.

 

[ree]

OP,

read "which" consumer magazine for jan 2012 p. 67 - 69.
There are multi complaints against all the major D&T companies including Peter Cox, Rentokil & Timberwise. google and see

If possible, be there and insist on a Limited Inspection as per the item in the Valuer's survey report.
Give them a copy before the inspection starts. You could also give them a copy of the "which" report above.
Peter Cox used to do free surveys.

The cupboard in the c/breast recess that you mention is certainly a candidate for condensation, likewise any units against the outer wall.

 

[builder1953]

You would do well to make sure the surveyor or company is a member of the Property Care Association and the surveyor holds a CSRT [ Certified Surveyor of Remedial Treatments ] qualification. This, at least, demonstrates commitment and knowledge on damp issues.

 

[TatskyPT]

You would do well to make sure the surveyor or company is a member of the Property Care Association and the surveyor holds a CSRT [ Certified Surveyor of Remedial Treatments ] qualification. This, at least, demonstrates commitment and knowledge on damp issues.

Peter Cox are PCA members, and I will check the qualifications of the surveyor when they come out.

I am told Peter Cox have been on the go for donkies years, and are fairly well respected. So hopefully they aren't out to rip me off.

I have posted images here of the wall and the outside showing where the air brick is, and also inside the cupboard with the boiler and washer in.

You can see lots of dust and cobwebs in the cupboard, but they are dry. Also the door frame to the cupboard is free of moisture, mould, or any visible symptoms I would have thought would suggest damp.

I took a close up of the chip on the wall, just to show this was due to me dropping an allen key rather than the wall crumbling

As you can see the wall is immaculate. It was painted probably 5-6 years ago, and displays no tide mark, or black spots.

Thanks for looking guys.

 

[TatskyPT]

Couple more photos as I hit the upload limit.

 

[Burnerman]

Indeed, your damp specialists have been on the go for years, and I'll reserve my judgement on them....
That looks like a canny wall to me! Minimise your condensation and invite Barratt back, emphasising the condition of the wall regarding paint and so on. It's their job to cast doubts.....
John

 

[TatskyPT]

Cheers Burnerman

Peter Cox are coming out friday, so I will let them do their thing. If they flag anything up to Barratt I will play hard ball and tell them there is nothing wrong with this wall, and see how I go.

No one from Barratt Homes will ever see the house, they just instruct 3rd party surveyors and "specialists" and go off the numbers they get back.