Vive La France!

[space junkie]

Complications during pregnancy can kill women, not pregnancy itself.

I suspect the majority of deaths, related to pregnancy, occur during childbirth.

 

[JonathanM]

Because it cant be known to be conception at the time

I understand that.

But I don't think that is what people who believe this claim. Surely what they are saying is, we know a woman is pregnant, and whenever conception occurred, even though we don't actually know when that was, and weren't aware it had happened at that time, this was when life began. It's something that religious people and scientists seem to agree on.

The Scientific Consensus on When a Human's Life Begins - PubMed

Peer-reviewed journals in the biological and life sciences literature have published articles that represent the biological view that a human's life begins at fertilization ("the fertilization view"). As those statements are typically offered without explanation or citation, the fertilization...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[carmanmemoranda]

Complications during pregnancy can kill women, not pregnancy itself.

Women die as a result of complications during and following pregnancy and childbirth. Most of these complications develop during pregnancy and most are preventable or treatable. Other complications may exist before pregnancy but are worsened during pregnancy, especially if not managed as part of the woman's care.

Being pregnant can kill. (Not DOES kill )

 

[JonathanM]

JonathanM, where did you find this answer?

From the same link you posted, I think. Doesn't it say two consultations are required for an abortion?

 

[space junkie]

Does that mean if they don't have the consultations, they can't have an abortion?

Abortion in France is legal upon request until 14 weeks after conception (16 weeks after the pregnant woman's last menstrual period).[1][2][3] Abortions at later stages of pregnancy up until birth are allowed if two physicians certify that the abortion will be done to prevent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman

Not sure it covers it really...

Due to the offence of preventing an abortion in France, and the abolition of any interval between consultations, and the variety of personnel that can conduct the first consultation, i suspect that the two consultations could be conducted on the same day, probably in the same building, probably immediately consecutively.

Even Wikipedia ia uncertain on the question:
Two medical consultations are mandatory before performing an abortion.[citation needed]

 

[space junkie]

So you endorse the right of one individual to take the life of another individual without the latters consent.

Even if your claim that a foetus is a child, killing of another individual is legalised in certain scenarios.

 

[space junkie]

The father has some influence upon the life of a child, surely.
He's expected to be there throughout her pregnancy, at the birth, participate in caring for the child...you know how much work that is, right? How does he not have a say in whether or not the woman gets an abortion on a child he may wish to live?

Perhaps when science has progressed to the point that a woman can hand over the foetus for the Father to carry to full term, and give birth, then the political/ moral/ ethical/ medical discussion can occur.

 

[space junkie]

From the same link you posted, I think. Doesn't it say two consultations are required for an abortion?

View attachment 337931

Thanks. I overlooked that.

Due to the offence of preventing an abortion in France, and the abolition of any interval between consultations, and the variety of personnel that can conduct the first consultation, i suspect that the two consultations could be conducted on the same day, probably in the same building, probably immediately consecutively.

Hardly no excuse to not have the consultations.

 

[space junkie]

2 consultations? The route into an abortion clinic is via a triage system. The woman gets to talk to a specialist nurse and a midwife. Both of these could be Phd's, certainly in a nurse's case. = 2 doctors.

Say they are not doctors. Do the actual doctors review the information gained by these people or conduct their own consultation? Even doctors have their specialities.

Has anyone who has posted actually been involved in the entire process so is aware of what actually happens?

The French government website is explanatory:
Voluntary Termination of Pregnancy in France

 

[space junkie]

It's the same poll Notch7 posted. I can see, now, that wasn't clear.

OMG, guys.

I posted the article to provide a very simple counterpoint, to the very simple narrative that some were pushing on here, that only men who hate women want to restrict abortion. Here is the figure from that latest poll. It shows by a twenty point margin (again), that women are more in favour of making abortion more restrictive than men are.

View attachment 337883

So 50% of women, and 59% of men, think it's about right or too restrictive.
And there's 15% of women and 16% of men unaccounted for. Perhaps they had no opinion.

Well, the author says it is purely to help inform the battle of ideas. Same purpose as me. I appreciate the title could be thought of as a little bit click-baity. But what has got you so wound up about the content of this article? The author isn't advocating for tougher restrictions on abortion, in any way, shape or form. He is merely analysing that, out of those who are, it's more women than men. That is something I found interesting. It hasn't made me more in favour of restricting abortion.

Hence my objection to the posting of the minority firgures, and the lack of posting the majority percentage.
IMO, it was intended to be misleading.

 

[Brigadier]

I understand that.

But I don't think that is what people who believe this claim. Surely what they are saying is, we know a woman is pregnant, and whenever conception occurred, even though we don't actually know when that was, and weren't aware it had happened at that time, this was when life began. It's something that religious people and scientists seem to agree on.

The Scientific Consensus on When a Human's Life Begins - PubMed

Peer-reviewed journals in the biological and life sciences literature have published articles that represent the biological view that a human's life begins at fertilization ("the fertilization view"). As those statements are typically offered without explanation or citation, the fertilization...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

All human lives begin at fertilisation.

Not all fertilisations naturally lead to human life.

 

[space junkie]

Are there any dishonest posts you are unhappy about?

Yes the Guardian article was out of date, the poll results contained in that article were well out of date, Notch7's up to date poll shows that societal attitudes have measurably changed over the 10 years.
The initiators behind the polls weren't disclosed, nor were the questions, methodology, etc.
Polls are inititiated and paid for by commerial/voluntary/pressure groups, etc.

The article only presented the minority figures, which is unusual. Normally the majority percentages are declared, or at least full results are declared.
A quick skim read, poor comprehension, etc could easily leave the reader under the impression that more restrictive framework is required or desired.

 

[JonathanM]

All human lives begin at fertilisation.

Not all fertilisations naturally lead to human life.

I still don't understand how that links to the original point about not being aware of conception. Could you please be a bit less cryptic and just explain the whole thing and how it fits together in a few proper sentences? I would really appreciate that.

.... which is not known for a number of weeks, or even months.

 

[Brigadier]

#2136

 

[JonathanM]

Thank you for being so helpful.