Vive La France!

[space junkie]

I still don't understand how that links to the original point about not being aware of conception. Could you please be a bit less cryptic and just explain the whole thing and how it fits together in a few proper sentences? I would really appreciate that.

#2136

I'm not sure that vinty's explanation is sufficient:

At conception.
An egg itself is a biological dead end, as is male sperm.
Once the egg is fertilised successfully, then a life is created.

On that basis it could be argued that an amputated limb is "life".
Obviously an amputated limb is not viable life, and neither is a feotus under 24 weeks.

Surely a better criteria is when does conscious, or viable life begin?

 

[motorbiking]

An amputated arm is not living. At 20-22 weeks 11% of babies were born alive, at 23 weeks, 39%

 

[JonathanM]

I'm not sure that vinty's explanation is sufficient:

On that basis it could be argued that an amputated limb is "life".
Obviously an amputated limb is not viable life, and neither is a feotus under 24 weeks.

Surely a better criteria is when does conscious, or viable life begin?

I wasn't actually discussing those wider points. That's something for later! I was very interested in the specific point Brigadier made i.e. that a life can't begin at the point of fertilisation because nobody is actually aware that fertilisation has occurred until weeks or months later. Can you help explain this, as I have been struggling to get my head round it? I can't even work out whether it is a philosophical or scientific argument or maybe even some sort of Schrodinger's cat thing.

 

[motorbiking]

..4D images are 3D images that move in real time. 4D images of foetuses, a technology pioneered by Professor Stuart Campbell among others, show incredibly detailed images of 12 week foetuses appearing to stretch, kick and 'leap', 18 week foetuses opening their eyes and 26 week foetuses appearing to scratch, 'smile', 'cry', hiccup, and suck. It has been suggested that these images have altered the public perception of foetuses in a significant way. Ad this is 15+ years ago in Noseall's report.

 

[space junkie]

An amputated arm is not living. At 20-22 weeks 11% of babies were born alive, at 23 weeks, 39%

Only 30% of babies born alive at 22 weeks survive to discharge from hospital.
“Three out of 10 of these extremely premature babies (born at 22 weeks) are likely to survive until they can be discharged from hospital."

Number of extremely premature babies receiving neonatal care triples | Imperial News | Imperial College London

The number of babies born at 22 weeks given respiratory life support in England and Wales increased three-fold after NHS guidelines changed in 2019.

www.imperial.ac.uk

That brings the overall survival rate of babies at 22 weeks to 3.3%.
These babies are wanted and the intention was probably to go to full term. Medical treatment has come a long way, and no-one would deny medical treatment to these babies.
So the data is rather irrelevant.

But the resources for these babies has tripled:
“The updated guidelines mean that our neonatal units are now caring for three-times as many babies born at 22 weeks."

Number of extremely premature babies receiving neonatal care triples | Imperial News | Imperial College London

The number of babies born at 22 weeks given respiratory life support in England and Wales increased three-fold after NHS guidelines changed in 2019.

www.imperial.ac.uk

Thanks to the NHS.

 

[space junkie]

I wasn't actually discussing those wider points. That's something for later! I was very interested in the specific point Brigadier made i.e. that a life can't begin at the point of fertilisation because nobody is actually aware that fertilisation has occurred until weeks or months later. Can you help explain this, as I have been struggling to get my head round it? I can't even work out whether it is a philosophical or scientific argument or maybe even some sort of Schrodinger's cat thing.

Could it be the same question as turning off life support for critically ill, (brain dead) patients?
If there is no chance of viable life, and no consciousness, is there really life?

 

[space junkie]

..4D images are 3D images that move in real time. 4D images of foetuses, a technology pioneered by Professor Stuart Campbell among others, show incredibly detailed images of 12 week foetuses appearing to stretch, kick and 'leap', 18 week foetuses opening their eyes and 26 week foetuses appearing to scratch, 'smile', 'cry', hiccup, and suck. It has been suggested that these images have altered the public perception of foetuses in a significant way. Ad this is 15+ years ago in Noseall's report.

There is involuntary movement of brain dead people. It doesn't prove that their life is viable, nor that they will survive.
"Spontaneous and reflex movements may occur in brain-dead patients."

Frequency of spinal reflex movements in brain-dead patients - PubMed

Spontaneous and reflex movements may occur in brain-dead patients. These movements originate from spinal cord neurons and do not preclude a brain-death diagnosis. In this study, we sought to determine the frequency and characteristics of motor movements in patients who fulfilled diagnostic...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Your comments prove nothing.

 

[noseall]

All human lives begin at fertilisation.

Not all fertilisations naturally lead to human life.

Do you reckon vinty and his ilk have a funeral every time a woman passes a bloody mess, just in case there is embryonic material to mourn?

 

[Notch7]

At conception.
An egg itself is a biological dead end, as is male sperm.
Once the egg is fertilised successfully, then a life is created.

so what

humans can choose when they have babies

so if a woman has an abortion when she is not in a stable situation to have a baby, she can choose to have one when she is.

the choice still only creates 1 baby

you just want the woman to have no choice, you arent creating another life

 

[motorbiking]

There is involuntary movement of brain dead people. It doesn't prove that their life is viable, nor that they will survive.
"Spontaneous and reflex movements may occur in brain-dead patients."

Frequency of spinal reflex movements in brain-dead patients - PubMed

Spontaneous and reflex movements may occur in brain-dead patients. These movements originate from spinal cord neurons and do not preclude a brain-death diagnosis. In this study, we sought to determine the frequency and characteristics of motor movements in patients who fulfilled diagnostic...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Your comments prove nothing.

they were't my comments they were here: https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmsctech/1045/104505.htm

welcome back btw.

 

[noseall]

Complications during pregnancy can kill women, not pregnancy itself.

I can think of a very safe and effective solution to that, with immediate effect.

 

[space junkie]

An amputated arm is not living.

Yet it warrants its own law covering removal, storage, use and disposal.
The Human Tissue Act 2004 regulates the removal, storage, use and disposal of Relevant Material.

Which did/can include the disposal of aborted foetuses (foetus/foeti).

 

[noseall]

.... which is not known for a number of weeks, or even months.

How can vinty and his loopy mates have a funeral, if they don't know? Do they mourn every bloody discharge, just in case there is embryonic matter present? Is there a gravestone?

 

[space junkie]

they were't my comments

You posted them without any reference to any other source,

 

[noseall]

You either accept those facts or you don't.

Legal developments since 1967 have made it abundantly clear that, with the glaring exception of the regulation of abortion, this correctly captures the position at English common law and under the Human Rights Act (1998). Namely, the fetus is not a legal person, and its interests cannot trump those of the pregnant woman.