Vive La France!

[noseall]

Double standards it's alright when you have a pop at me making a mistake

Eh? A pop at you - when?

 

[motorbiking]

Nor is a removed foetus.

Abortion is the process of killing the unborn child - you understand that?
You also understand that a foetus is the stage from 10 weeks until birth?

So around 58,000 foetus' are born alive each year.

 

[noseall]

Abortion is the process of killing the unborn child - you understand that?
You also understand that a foetus is the stage from 10 weeks until birth?

So around 58,000 foetus' are born alive each year.

I'm sure those irrelevant stats probably matter to you.

 

[space junkie]

Abortion is the process of killing the unborn child - you understand that?
You also understand that a foetus is the stage from 10 weeks until birth?

So around 58,000 foetus' are born alive each year.

Abortion is the process of ending the pregnancy - you understand that?
It is not a baby/child until it is born.

Link to such data?
For example the definition of an embryo is up the eighth week of pregnancy. And the definition of a foetus is from the ninth week, until birth.
Perhaps you have a different source for the definitions?

Being 'born alive' and surviving to discharge from hospital depends entirely upon the stage at which the foetus is born.
You have presented a misleading set of data again. No-one is currently advocating abortion on demand for foetus more than 24 weeks of pregnancy.

We estimate that nearly 58,000 babies are born prematurely in the UK every year. This means that 1 in every 13 babies born in the UK will be born premature (before 37 weeks of pregnancy).

Prematurity statistics in the UK | Bliss

View our statistics on the number of babies born premature in the UK and some information about the long term outcomes for these babies.

www.bliss.org.uk

Your understanding of the issue is poor and your presented data is incorrect and/or misleading.

The latest update suggests that of the babies born pre 28 weeks, is only 2.5% of babies born alive and surviving to discharge.

 

[motorbiking]

I’m not arguing with you Roy. Crack on quoting me as much as you like.

 

[space junkie]

I’m not arguing with you Roy. Crack on quoting me as much as you like.

I will, each time you present incorrect or misleading data or facts.
And each time you misrepresent the law to reflect your own ideology.

Survival Rate of live births, according to stage of pregnancy, approximately, taken from the Bliss website.

Prematurity statistics in the UK | Bliss

View our statistics on the number of babies born premature in the UK and some information about the long term outcomes for these babies.

www.bliss.org.uk

 

[Odds]

 

[ajohn]

There seems to be a degree of circular arguments that miss the fundamentals. Just UK rules but might be better to say England.

The vast bulk of abortions are carried out on a socio economic basis or a women for some other reason just does not want a baby at this point in time. This could be elaborated on but no need really. A baby grows and and influences a parent life for a long time. This is viewed as harm in respect to the women but in practice it can relate to both parents. Not enough money, life style, loss of career etc. Indirectly those relate to the standard of life of the child. Genetic conditions that might be pass on by parents may figure.

Some to preserve the women's life.

Some due to problems associated with future prospects concerning the resultant child. One point where this area may crop up or earlier.
If you're pregnant in England you'll be offered an ultrasound scan at around 10 to 14 weeks of pregnancy. This is called the dating scan. It's used to see how far along in your pregnancy you are and check your baby's development. The scan may also be part of a screening test for Down's syndrome.
A loose indication about Down's that can be more accurately determined later on along with 2 other conditions. The scan may also show development problems. The standard blood tests pregnant women have can also figure.

So if people want to argue it's petty simple. I agree with the UK laws and all of the consequences. So if some one doesn't which aspect do they disagree with and in what way?

 

[motorbiking]

I don't think you'll get an answer to that.. but some of the position shown on this thread are:

- Its the woman's body so she should have the ultimate say, even though its terminating a potential human life
- some refuse to accept the unborn baby is alive until its born
- some want abortion restricted because of their beliefs
- some want the right to have one protected by some sort of constitutional right, that can't be changed.

I think the balance is about right as it is. But I don't kid myself that an abortion (on socio economic grounds) is not the destruction of a potential human. So it should have checks and balances that extend beyond the rights of the woman to do as she pleases.

If you are going to do it, its better all round, if you do it as early as possible.

 

[ajohn]

I don't think you'll get an answer to that.. but some of the position shown on this thread are:

LOL I know but what I suggested rather losely is the only way of getting a true opinion on the subject. A subject that like many where it's difficult to get a black or white answer so will always be a shade of grey.

Pressure groups and politics in general - they will always be looking for changes in what ever they are currently interested in. The hardest line on abortion is that any fertilised egg has the possibility of producing a child. At the other end of the scale make it easier in the UK. Sell the correct pills in Savers? Might be an extreme option but some abortions do need medical procedures.

I have come across one aspect that I find disturbing. A woman getting the pills and using them well past the point where they should be used. Result a prison sentance. She would be highly likely to need the NHS shortly after they were used.
On 12 June 2023, a woman was sentenced to over two years in prison for inducing an abortion after the legal limit through the "pills by post" scheme by misleading the BPAS and falsely saying she was below the 10 week cutoff (she was believed to be 28 weeks pregnant at the time).[199] This was later reduced to 14 months suspended sentence after being sent to the Court of Appeal.[200] This led to a number of abortion-rights advocates, women's-rights groups, politicians and medics to call on the British government to reform its abortion laws.

They could insist on a scan which would make getting one more difficult. The 2 doctor aspect - a red herring. Far too many short term abortions for that to be a really significant aspect. It seems for some this can push things a little past 10weeks or is it really down to docs being fed up of signing the forms. I have seen talk of just using the triage arrangement that all services probably use. A suitable nurse and a midwife.

 

[motorbiking]

There was widespread evidence that the forms were being pre-filled so in effect a rubber stamping.

Of course you can have the opinion that life begins at conception and still be in favour of the abortion laws we have.

 

[space junkie]

- Its the woman's body so she should have the ultimate say, even though its terminating a potential human life

It's not that simple, however simplistically you try to dress it up.
"A potential human life"" fails to take account of the quality of life for the Mother, the Parents, the Child, the Adult, any future children, etc.
The costs to the family and the state for sustaining an acceptable quality of life.
The risk of emotional stress caused by an early loss of the 'potential' human life.
I'm sure there's many more factors to be considered.

- some refuse to accept the unborn baby is alive until its born

It's not capable of viable life under 24 weeks.
It's like you claiming that an amputated limb is not alive. It's not capable of sustaining its own life. Neither is a foetus under 24 weeks.

- some want abortion restricted because of their beliefs

Some want to enforce their beliefs on others.

- some want the right to have one protected by some sort of constitutional right, that can't be changed.

So that a right-wing pro-life government can't change it from one parliament life to the next.
It's like the Magna Carta, so the royalty is always subject to the same law as the common man.

I think the balance is about right as it is. But I don't kid myself that an abortion (on socio economic grounds) is not the destruction of a potential human. So it should have checks and balances that extend beyond the rights of the woman to do as she pleases.

You are welcome to your belief.
Forcing it on others by nefarious means is unacceptable.

 

[space junkie]

There was widespread evidence that the forms were being pre-filled so in effect a rubber stamping.

Where is this widespread evidence?
Or are you going to claim that you're ignoring me, in order to avoid the obvious.

 

[noseall]

So if people want to argue it's petty simple. I agree with the UK laws and all of the consequences. So if some one doesn't which aspect do they disagree with and in what way?

Like that fact that abortion is still illegal in the UK?

 

[noseall]

There was widespread evidence that the forms were being pre-filled so in effect a rubber stamping.

Widespread?