Water heating system for a flat without a flue

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Hi,

I have a copper immersion heater which heats water for my hot taps, bath and shower. It is in a second floor flat and uses a seperate water pump. Both are plugged in on the same dedicated circuit. I want to update the water heating system so that I have hot water on demand. Currently I have to turn the immersion heater on for 30mins before having a shower. I would like something energy efficient without needing an extraction flue. Does anyone have experience with a similar situation and or have any suggestions.

Thank you in advance,
 
Currently I have to turn the immersion heater on for 30mins before having a shower.
Either insulate the cylinder or install a new one which will have proper insulation, the hot water will then stay hot for a day or more. It can then be heated at whatever time is cheap and convenient.

The idea of turning hot water on an hour or four before using it is what people used to do 50+ years ago. Forget about that.
 
want to update the water heating system so that I have hot water on demand.
Forget about that as well, as it would require a 10kW or more electric heater which will provide mediocre performance and could well be too powerful for your existing electricity supply. As an added fail, it can't use cheaper electricity overnight or solar.
 
Yes, as Flameport says.

Indeed people used to turn it on an hour or before intended use, to highly insulate is a good idea . Keeping it topped up throughout the day can have its benefits in some instances. You might be able to top up more at cheaper times and less at expensive times too. It all depends. But reducing any waste of heat is first and foremost before all the other tweeks for usage.

Use of twin heaters and "One-Shot circuits" might be a benefit too. Again it depends upon your intended usage.
 
I would like something energy efficient
I will read that as some thing cheaper to run, as if using a resistive heater the only way to get more efficient is a heat pump.

As @flameport says reducing losses is the way to go, better lagging.

My boiler is 19 kW and it will turn off in summer after ½ hour basic reason is the heat can not transfer fast enough, to heat 40 gallons with a 3 kW immersion heater will take around 4 hours and will need around 12 kWh so 3 into 12 goes 4 so around 4 hours to fully heat the tank, the problem is an immersion heater normally does not heat whole tank, it only heats the top, and the main land UK method was to fit two immersion heaters, one going to near bottom of tank, and the other just the top. The bottom one used before having a bath.

In Ulster they have another method, the Irish are very clever, they fit the immersion outside the main tank and it is arranged to heat water from the top down, so the longer it is left on, the more hot water you get, called the Willis system, the big question is if a main land plumber has the skill to set this up? However with the Willis system having a timer on the immersion will control how much hot water you have rather than how hot the water is.

I have tried to get more info on the Willis as not sure how it will work when the immersion is not using 3 kW, mine uses a variable amount of power, depending on how much solar is being produced.

I have used a power shower (name given to an electrical pumped shower) and it was very good, however not permitted to suck water from the mains, so need an open vented system to use one, and a hot and cold water supply. There are other methods to get higher pressure hot water, including a hot coil supply. This Torrent pipe example.PNG shows the idea, the cylinder is not pressurised to mains pressure, but DHW is, the other method is to pressurise whole cylinder but this then requires an annual pressure test.

Much depends on how much hot water you use, and how it compares with other electric use. Now I have a smart meter I can have a split tariff, so I was paying 62.21p standing charge, and 29.57p per kWh now I pay 59.14p standing charge, and 31.31p per kWh in the day, and 8.95p per kWh from midnight until 8 am.

One needs to know what you use and when to work out which is best for you, what makes it pay for me, is I have a 3.2 kWh battery which is charged over night, and solar panels to keep the power use down during the day. You can clearly heat the DHW over night, so for DHW alone the split tariff would save money, but it is what power is used by other items.

Use a timer on the immersion cylinder, so it's ready when you need it?
This is clearly the way to go with a split tariff, but with a single tariff, not so sure, if I heat my cylinder with the oil central heating it can heat whole tank, and it will last us 3 days, it has no tank thermostat, and there are losses from the pipe work, so the boiler in summer was run for ½ hour every other day, but after fitting solar panels I went over to using an immersion heater which does have a tank thermostat, and is supplied from an iboost+ so only uses spare solar energy, and once the unit had switched off reporting tank hot, the water would not last until the next day, as it only heats around the top 9" of water.

1711269832611.png
This shows B and C the two immersion heater positions so one can select how much is heated, and this 1711270020795.png shows the Willis system, with external immersion heater 1711270113936.pngbut the big question is if it's all worth it? I paid a lot for my solar panels and battery, and I am not sure it they will ever pay for them selves, my electric payments have gone down from £119.70 to £81.35 a month direct debit, that may not be the real change in how much I use, but £460.20 a year it will take 26 years to pay back, that will make me 99 years old before it pays for its self.

We were banking on electric prices raising, but I did not take into account loss of interest. And there is a notice on my electric app to say prices are going down in April. I have redone my calculations based on what my in house display shows and it does seem saving may be a £100 more per year to what British Gas worked out, however it seems it will not pay for its self in the 7 years promised.

I look at power used, and there are some heavy power users which can be run when electric cost is low, washing machine, tumble drier, dish washer etc. and running them over night while also reheating water could reduce electric costs, but google tumble drier fire and we see 1711271405282.png so many reports, as to how many involve heat pump driers I don't know, but there are clearly risks in running appliances unattended over night.

So a full tank (40 gallons) of water peak cost is around £4, this will likely last around 3 days. With all the timers etc one may reduce the cost to £1.20 if heated over night, so saving is around 90 p a day, heating over night, but one would also need to uses other items over night as well to compensate for extra cost of electric during the day. I think a heat pump drier is far less likely to go on fire to an element type, however we are still looking at the whole safety aspect of running items over night.
 
I must admit that I`ve never heard of the Willis System. Dare I envisage that it is, in effect, a very small cylinder feeding a larger (say standard cylinder) with it`s own on board immersion heater and therefore in addition to or alongside (thermally) whatever method is heating the main cylinder?.
What are the advantages/disadvantages?
The first that comes to mind is heat venting loss via the cylinder overflow into the cold tank area - obviously if the water level remains as should be it will not send hot water into the tankdirectly but that warmer water into the tank area will heat the air above it to the tank area which may be uninsulated too. Only a minimal effect anyway but I see the whole concept as heat loss prevention both to the mini-cylinder and that overflow pipe.
Not nit picking just interested
 
Can't see how a Willis system is any different than an immersion heater installed directly in the tank at the same height the Willis system takes out from the main tank
 
Can't see how a Willis system is any different than an immersion heater installed directly in the tank at the same height the Willis system takes out from the main tank
Yeah. I`m actually just in the process of reading the thread, posted a few years back, about The Willis System. I got to about page 3 of 7 so far and, as yet, I`m still baffled. Interesting though, I`ll break off a while to protect my sanity and look back in on it.
 
I have also been looking back at old thread and also looking at the solar variant 1711360327008.pngit seems there are two controls, here is a valve looking like a gate valve at the base 'A' (¾ inch regulating valve), and 'E' at top is called a temperature sensor, I was looking at the idea of using it with the iboost+ but I have failed to find a plumber in mid Wales who knows how to set one up.

The problem does not end there however, what we need to work out, is will it have a short enough pay back time to be worth all the effort? Today at long last my app showing electric used has up dated. 1711360924185.png However clicking on £ and it says not available, and since 0 to 8 is a different tariff to 8 to 24 rather useless. The 0 to 8 is higher than 8 to 24 so if I look at ½ at each rate I get £2.50 also adding the standing charge, it will be less than that, but the point is £1.91 for actually electric used, removing standard charge is the maximum I can save in a day by reducing electric use. OK that's £700 a year, but realistically if one can save £200 a year that would be rather good going. One is looking at £57 just for the immersion heater, by time fitted it will be well over that, likely it would take a decade to pay for its self, and by then there will be a whole new load of energy saving items on the market.

So start point is what is used now in electric over a typical day, less or more than me, and what's the split during the day? There is no point looking in isolation, if a light bulb for example produces 40 watt hours of heat, but you heat the house with electric, then selecting a light bulb which does not produce that heat, is no saving, as the heating system will need to produce 40 watt hours more. The same applies to any other heat source. If you use an airing cupboard to dry clothes lagging the tank will mean clothes do not dry as well. Block up a vent and house gets more humid, fit a heat recovery unit and one retains more heat without an increase in humidity.

I tell my wife food stock is too high, she says it saves on diesel driving the 8 miles or more to get food. I have a milk delivery as it saves money going out for milk, even if costs more than milk from supermarket.

So I just let the immersion heater do it's thing, I know I can save money having a longer one, but is it really worth all the effort?
 
I read it all but became frazzled after page 3 breaktime.
Still interesting, I will have to re-engage page 4 to 7 once my head has rested.
All good fun though nonetheless.

A few years back I would have read it entirely, probably made a conclusion too. I never did like unfinished tech reads but later years had to.
I once, famously to myself, got stuck on The "Monty Hall Conundrum" so after 2 days I left it, then about 3 weeks later without thinking about it at all had a blinding flash of inspiration one morning whilst having a shave. All of a sudden I looked at myself and said "Eureka!" ping just like that. Strange..

Hmmm, I wonder if I might do the same with the Willis job.
 
Ah yes; the host opening a door and showing you a goat actually converts the chance you didn't win with your first guess, into a chance of winning if you switch but it takes a while to sink in like that ..

It gets easier to see if there are more doors. If there is one car and 999,999 goats then your chance that your first guess doesn't win you the car is 999,999 in a million i.e. virtually certain it's a goat.

If the host then opens 999,998 doors to show you 999,998 goats you're left with the choice of whether to stick with the door you picked (999,999 in a million chance it's not a car) or the other (999,999 in a million chance it is a car); switching converts the chance you were wrong initially into the chance you're right
 
Yes, Basically the one chance in 3 of being correct then became a one chance in 3 of being wrong. therefore doubling your chance of winning if you change your mind. Such a simple example once it hits you.
So either way you might win or might lose but your overall chance reciprocates.
I got stuck of thinking about them as a one chance in 3 compared to a one chance in 2 (Therefore 50% more chance by changing your mind rather than the real 100% more chance of winning but you still had a chance of losing).
Simple once you got it and look back, not simple before you get it and then lead yourself up the wrong path though).

A bit like the three friends wanting a second hand TV for £30 but then asking where the other pound has gone, you distract yerself (or others distract you) from the proper equation. Nice party trick though, causes quite a few comments even with no beer involved.
 
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