What do the regs say about sockets fed from portable UPS being RCD Protected?

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Just wondering what BS7671 says about fixed sockets being RCD protected when being fed from a portable UPS (i.e. removable rack type UPS) when the the UPS is operating on battery mode and the Line & Neutral conductors are isolated from Earth. (Effectively a Isolated Terra based earthing system.)

What is one supposed to do (without modifying the UPS by internally linking N & E together.) in such a situation, when even a RCD protected socket would not do much good when there is no current return path via the earth back to the UPS?

While an isolated supply such a UPS operating on battery mode are often safe from non possible current return paths such as through the floor one is standing on, you then have the additional problem of Class 1 devices that have a line-to-earth fault will likely not operate any over current protection devices due to the floating earth.

What doe the regs say exactly on this situation and what are peoples views?

Regards: Elliott
 
If it is an IT supply, then device(s) should be used to monitor the outputs and disconnect in the event of a fault to earth, or at least sound an alarm or similar. RCDs can be used if there is no other device which disconnects on the first fault to ground, the RCD would disconnect on the second fault.

However this assumes that the output of the UPS is actually isolated, plenty are not.
 
However this assumes that the output of the UPS is actually isolated, plenty are not.


Appears your correct. I have a 1500VA APC UPS that feeds some equipment in a 6U data cabinet just below it what in turn feeds a single flush socket in a room upstairs what feeds a Wireless AP and a IP Cam.

Disconnected from the mains, the voltage from the UPS between L & E is around 130V-140V AC.

Definitely going to get a plug in RCD now for the output of my UPS. Not a ideal solution as one could easily remove the RCD. Will get a fused spur RCD and wire it into the cable feeding the data cabinet.

Also, as there is no ground/earthing screw on the UPS other than one for TTVS devices such as phones, network line protectors, etc... is it worth modifying the UPS and taking a non removable earth wire from the UPS back to the FCU feeding it?

My house is a TN-S Supply.
 
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Will it be classed as IT (protection by ADS) or protection by electrical separation?
 
If the UPS feeds a single item then not having an earth is not really a problem like when using a shaver socket. The same applies to generators. Where the problem arises is if it supplies more then one item. The scenario is if one item has a live 1 to earth fault and the other a live 2 to earth fault then you could get a shock touching both together.

Since earth is not connected there is no path for a line 1 or line 2 fault to what should be earthed to cause an imbalance so it will not trip with a single fault. With IT earthing we need special devices that monitor both the lines and earth it states:-
The following monitoring devices and protective devices may be used:
(i) Insulation monitoring devices (IMDs)
(ii) Residual current monitoring devices (RCMs)
(iii) Insulation fault location systems
(iv) Overcurrent protective devices
(v) RCDs

But I can't see how a RCD would work unless there was some other device to cause the earth to be connected to one of the lines to make it into a neutral. The regs state:-
It is strongly recommended that IT systems with distributed neutrals should not be employed.

411.6.3.1 Where an IT system is used for reasons of continuity of supply, an insulation monitoring device shall be provided to indicate the occurrence of a first fault from a live part to an exposed-conductive-part or to Earth.
This device shall initiate an audible and or visual signal which shall continue as long as the fault persists.
If there are both audible and visual signals it is permissible for the audible signal to be cancelled.

One of these
F8065910-01.jpg
costs £195 so in real terms cheaper to use one UPS for each item requiring an UPS. I did some pricing some years ago with idea of a central UPS and realised it was not cost effective, individual UPS for each item worked out cheaper.
 
Since earth is not connected there is no path for a line 1 or line 2 fault

Disconnected from the mains, the voltage from the UPS between L & E is around 130V-140V AC.


My UPS is the typical one with IEC outputs and a IEC Input similar to this; it is above the 6U network cabinet on it's side on a large shelf. The network cabinet what is supplementary bonded back to the FCU feeding the UPS feeds a couple of switches, Single bay NAS drive, USB Printer server, and the socket in the room upstairs.

When disconnected from the mains, the UPS Voltage is as follows:

L-N 243V

N-E 125V

E-L 118V

Would a typical FCU RCD not work then because of the low voltage between Earth and Line, where Earth appears it may be the centre tap of the step-up transformer. What would be the easiest and cheapest thing for me to do?
 
The worry with centre tapped earth is the switch and fuse is often on the line only. However the question is if centre tapped or floating, if the latter then likely a line - earth fault will just make the line go to earth polarity and not cause a RCD to trip, not until you get a second fault would anything trip.

In real terms I think the chance of two faults while there is a power cut is remote, and personally I would not really be that worried. However if the power cut was caused by the RCD tripping due to a earth fault then you only need one fault to cause danger.

Where I worked the instructions were with a power cut log off and close down all computers. The UPS would not run for long so this saved losing work, they were never intended to allow people to continue to work during the power cut. So the dangers of two faults were rather remote.

If worried write out a risk assessment stating that as long as the UPS is only used to save work in event of power loss then not having RCD protection for such a short time is not considered as a unsafe practice. Should anyone then decide to use them for longer they are not following your risk assessment so leaving you a get out.

I have switched of supplies in a house, and told the occupant I can't switch it back on as there is a fault, but I can't stop them from switching it back on. I know once around the corner they will switch it on. But I left the house in a safe position.

Today likely I would have a hard time in court explaining my actions. But Likely I would get away with it.

The only way for the unit not to have a floating neutral would be for it to switch line only when there is a power outage, and that could mean the line being fed to the neutral and causing a danger for some one working on the system. So I would guess most have floating neutral or since not bonded to earth line 2. Can't see any cheap UPS having a bond neutral to earth made only when there is a power cut.
 
or floating, if the latter then likely a line - earth fault will just make the line go to earth polarity and not c
ause a RCD to trip, not until you get a second fault would anything trip.

Can you elaborate as I am confused, surely if the earth was floating then only capacitive coupling could cause the 118V AC between L and E and that the Earth would go to the Line potential in the event of a Line-to-Earth fault. Floating to me means there is no direct connection and is not electrically connected.

I have switched of supplies in a house, and told the occupant I can't switch it back on as there is a fault, but I can't stop them from switching it back on.

The lock it out or disconnect the the circuit in the CU.

The only way for the unit not to have a floating neutral would be for it to switch line only when there is a power outage

Now you've lost me o_O:?: When you say switch line, do you mean for it to join N & E together only during a power cut?
 
That is talking about a lost neutral, where you don't have ballanced loads on a 3 phase system and whichever phase is drawing the most current pulls the voltage down on that phase and up on the other two. When his happens magic smoke escapes from lots of equipment!
In a single phase system a lost neutral doesn't cause this sort of issue as no current can flow.
 
That is talking about a lost neutral

That's what i thought, as in a broken neutral that is particularly dangerous on a TN-C-S system with houses split across the three phases.

whichever phase is drawing the most current pulls the voltage down on that phase and up on the other two.

Is the phase what gets pulled down due to voltage drop on that phase and the remaining two phases what get pulled up due to the two current return paths through each of the remaining two phases?

Who ever did that diagram did not know what he/she was doing. You cannot have 230V phase voltage and 440V phase to phase voltage st the same time.

Good spot, 440 ÷ 1.732 = 254V from Phase to Neutral.


Also, how can my UPS have a floating Neutral in normal circumstances when on battery mode when there is 125V between N & E. Will try and light up a incandescent light bulb tomorrow between N & E from the UPS as a indication of whether high current can be provided between N & E.
 
The lost of neutral with three phase is very different to switching off the neutral when a UPS takes over. With the UPS unless it switches the neutral to earth at the same time as it disconnects the incoming supply it can't have the neutral bonded to earth. Unless the earth is bonded to the neutral then the output will be floating and it is an IT supply. By IT I refer to earthing method, in fact not even a true IT supply as there is normally a earthing impedance resistor with the IT supply.

There is however no real reason why a warning device can't be built into the UPS to show if either leg has been pulled to earth by the devices on the output. That device could also disconnect if the output is pulled to earth, although that might defeat the whole idea of having an UPS.

With a single output and powering a single device there is no problem, just like using a shaver socket which has no earth, as the number of items powered from the UPS increases then the need for an earth increases, with a stand-by generator we would not dream of installing without having an earth rod connected to it.

The picture of the back of the UPS
817MyD9KDOL._SL1500_.jpg

shows TVSS GND (transient voltage surge-suppression) but this it seems is to ground things to the UPS the UPS still uses the earth connection from the supply lead, as to using the supply lead for earth when there has been a loss of power there seems an error with that since if unplugged it would not have the supply earth and to have the earth pin of a plug go live is clearly not what it wanted. So any earth would need to be connected with a tool so it could not be simply unplugged. Likely connecting an earth rod or at least something which is already bonded to the TVSS GND would provide a ground independent of the plug, but it may not be connected to the output under power failure anyway.

As I said before we need to assess the risk, and it seems likely that the supply socket is RCD protected, so any item plugged into the UPS which has an earth fault would cause the RCD to trip and the UPS to take over. So it is likely the UPS could have a single fault to start with, the single fault is not a danger as which ever line it earths does not matter the fault will not cause a shock. What is the problem is a second fault could result in a shock, so we need to consider what the UPS is supplying.

With an UPS supplying a rack of servers it is unlikely any outside influence would cause multiple servers to develop earth faults at the same time. However with the desk top computer for some one passing to trip and spill coffee on the computer and printer at the same time is possible. What we rely on is the cables linking the devices together insuring they all stay at the same polarity. Any loss of earth bonding between the items could cause two items cases to have different voltage polarity so having a high shock risk.

What we hope is the earth is not compromised, but with IT equipment when we PAT test we use just 250 mA instead of the normal 25 A because the earth often goes through a printed circuit, if this printed circuit can't take the amps from the UPS then you could end up with a very dangerous situation. It could blow the printed circuit earth connection. Now I am told the practice of using the printed circuit to carry the earth has stopped, but unless one opens up the appliance one does not really know.

Personally as long as the items supplied from the UPS are PAT tested using the 25A option and pass, then it is very unlikely the bonding between the items would be lost, so even though the output is not connected to earth with a power outage an UPS which is supplied from a 13A socket is unlikely to cause danger. Once one supplies the UPS from more than a 13A socket can provide then as with stand-by generators we need an earth connection. But having accessed the risk I would consider it is rather low and not worth worrying about. However in view of this I would generate method statements and risk assessments for the use of multi-output UPS units. If something was to go wrong, and you can show you considered the risks and came to a conclusion that they were minimal, even if your assessment turns out to be wrong, then it is unlikely you would be held responsible. The HSE does not say everything must be supper safe, it says you must take reasonable steps, and doing a risk assessment as I have done here I am sure would be considered as a reasonable step.
 
whichever phase is drawing the most current pulls the voltage down on that phase and up on the other two.

Is the phase what gets pulled down due to voltage drop on that phase and the remaining two phases what get pulled up due to the two current return paths through each of the remaining two phases?

The voltage will drop on whichever phase has more current drawn, this will in essence pull the untethered star point voltage up (after the break) wrt the star point of the transformer. The other two phases connected to the untethered star point get more volts than usual. Then magic smoke escapes from the equipment!
 
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