Advice : Persistant Leaking windows after rain - next steps with installer

[jacko555]

If you have spirit level, perhaps sit it on the cill see if it angles down to your wet patch (sounds wrong).

Wet patches are on both corners of each window that leaks. It's only 3 out of 20 windows with this issue, and the others don't seem and different in terms of placement.

would have expected those windows to be brought forward

While they're in the same position as the old, I presume they didn't move as it would have left more cavity exposed than the widest trim they had on the van / the internal window board depth wouldn't allow for it.

Question remains:

How do I deal with the installer? If I dump water down the rebated holes and nothing comes out of the cill, is this enough to demonstrate inadequate install?

Problem is, if these are moved forward, then every window in the house (are at least on the same side of the house) will need moving forward to suit, or it'll look sh1te.

Front of the house is like a picture a kid would draw. It's a lot of work to move them:
E.g.

 

[martygturner]

What trade association does you installer belong to...approach them for the arbitration scheme. I would suggest that you ask for a reinstall first.

 

[jacko555]

Fensa- who only deal with disputes around compliance of building regulations.

Plastic Window Federation - who take on the guarantee of work and allow claims, if the installer ceases trading. There's one sentence on their website that they offer "dispute resolution".

I don't have a dispute yet, as the installer does come as "fix" when I ask. Problem is the type of fix is hard to test needing hard driving rain in a certain direction.

This is why I am wondering about the drainage test - if it's not draining externally it's a fairly open and shut case and easily demonstrable.

Don't really want to go the dispute route, yet, so maybe the drainage test is enough to get a reinstall. It's that or court

 

[ronniecabers]

Have you tried the water drainage yet?

It may be a case that either end of the cill hasn't be sealed before the actual frame is fitted. Fitters are supposed to seal the end of the cill and create an upstand with silicone either end. This stops any driven water from running over either end of the cill below the actual window frame. You clearly have water getting under the frame and to the internal plaster ... I suspect the cill os your issue and only rectification is either remove window or chip wall ( and then still not easy!)

 

[jacko555]

Have you tried the water drainage yet?

Yes, as you've predicted, no water comes out on the upvc cill, it all vanishes into the cavity.

Same result on the 3 windows in question.

I've run this test on a number of windows in the house, and only a couple drain externally.

As the 3 windows in question are the most exposed (top floor, costal facing corner), they're the only ones that receive the full force of horizontal driving rain so are showing damp.

Would it be reasonable to request all the windows that don't drain externally are remedied, regardless of whether the inner plaster is showing damp? By using this is a test. My gut says yes, however, want to remain reasonable, as it is a lot of windows

 

[ronniecabers]

If the window and cill are fitted correctly water should still drain out of the drainage holes onto the cill regardless of the ' silicone ' upstand I mentioned.
There is more of an issue here if no water is coming out the drain holes and upon looking at your pictures again the external upvc cill appears to be very flat with no ru off ( maybe the angle of the picture though). If this is the case then water will not drain off the cill and will track to its lowest point .. potentially either end of the cill where its potentially not sealed.
Can you try the water down the drainage hole again please and actually see if water comes out at all, you may need to lean out and look at the gap between the top of the cill snd bottom of the window frame. There should be something as they look.like base drain frames, If no water at all then there is a fault with the window drainage ( possibly no exit holecdrilled in the frame ) and the water could be leaking out the frame at a joint in the frame ( as they look like mechanically jointed flush sash rather then welded joints ).

If when looking at the gap between the top of cill and bottom of window frame and you see water, I wonder if its actually tracking back under the window, which is why when you pour water in you aren't seeing it flow off
To me there is either an issue with fitting of the cill or an actual issue with the frames.

 

[Swwils]

They should have done this very basic test on day one!

 

[jacko555]

I put maybe a pint and nothing.

Please see pics. You can see where they've added silicone, I am guessing they suspect wind driven rain in the corner rather than frame drainage issues.

There is a slope, although it's not great.

Windows are mechanical joined, not welded.

 

[ronniecabers]

They should have done this very basic test on day one!

Absolutely agree!

That looks ok front to back ( must have been angle of picture earlier ) Should be no slope from left to right, that should be level.
A pint of water and none coming from under the frame? That sounds distinctly like no drainage outlet in the outer of the frame.
Have a look at the attached picture, it shows how base drainage works ( hole in rebate won' t line directly up with hole in bottom of frame though ). If you have no water following that path then there is an issue with the drainage and I would want to know where that water is going. If the drainage holes are missing I'm concerned the fitters never noticed and as Swwils says why have they not tested where the water is going yet

 

[ronniecabers]

That silicone doesn't look great around the cill either

 

[crank39]

They should have done this very basic test on day one!

I think the fitters deep down know this but are skirting around the issue because they know the window has to come out to rectify it, coming back and adding bits of silicone here and there or adjusting cams clearly is not the answer now but somehow hope the owner will just decide to live with it

 

[jacko555]

Y

I think the fitters deep down know this but are skirting around the issue because they know the window has to come out to rectify it, coming back and adding bits of silicone here and there or adjusting cams clearly is not the answer now but somehow hope the owner will just decide to live with it

Yeah, it's demoralising to say the least.

Now I have a reproducible test / evidence of fault I'm going to push harder. Have asked for a call with the MD. They're a fairly large and established "local" company, several, premises etc.

If they can't resolve the drainage I'll take them to small claims. Everything is well documented by email with photos.

I'll share the pain as I know more.