Air Bricks blocked, Cavity wall insulation and solid flooring....HELP!

[RRoxanneM]

We are purchasing a 1930s 3bed terrace house. The survey has flagged up possible damp in the floor timbers/joists although we aren't able to check the flooring due to the seller not allowing this therefore I want to build a decent enough case so we can get the price reduced.

1. We have been told by the surveyor that the ground floor living room floor is solid and the hallway and dining room floor is suspended timber. Is this normal for a 1930s house? Usually you would have solid flooring in the kitchen and the rest be suspended timber. Another reason why I don't think the living room floor is solid is because there are 2 air bricks in the front bay window which suggests a suspended floor. Can anyone advise on what you think?

2. We have noticed that the 2 air bricks under the bay window are blocked with insulation. The seller advised this would have been done when British gas installed the cavity wall insulation. The obviously issue with this is we all know blocked up air bricks cuts off the air ventilation under the house thus creating a warm environment for damp and fungus to grow which will eventually cause damage to the joists under the floor. This may be why there are signs of damp and flexing in the vinyl flooring.

There was an older lady who lived there, and it seemed she resided in the front living room a lot. Our guess is that insulation had been installed in the timber flooring and cavity wall insulation was installed to create a warmer living room for her, which is all very fine but without a consent flow of ventilation from the air bricks, it would have created the perfect environment for damp.

 

[jeds]

We are purchasing a 1930s 3bed terrace house. The survey has flagged up possible damp in the floor timbers/joists although we aren't able to check the flooring due to the seller not allowing this therefore I want to build a decent enough case so we can get the price reduced.

1. We have been told by the surveyor that the ground floor living room floor is solid and the hallway and dining room floor is suspended timber. Is this normal for a 1930s house? Usually you would have solid flooring in the kitchen and the rest be suspended timber. Another reason why I don't think the living room floor is solid is because there are 2 air bricks in the front bay window which suggests a suspended floor. Can anyone advise on what you think?

If there are air bricks, it certainly was originally a suspended floor. Could the floor have been filled to make it solid? That can Sometimes be a better option than replacing timbers?

2. We have noticed that the 2 air bricks under the bay window are blocked with insulation. The seller advised this would have been done when British gas installed the cavity wall insulation. The obviously issue with this is we all know blocked up air bricks cuts off the air ventilation under the house thus creating a warm environment for damp and fungus to grow which will eventually cause damage to the joists under the floor. This may be why there are signs of damp and flexing in the vinyl flooring.

without a consent flow of ventilation from the air bricks, it would have created the perfect environment for damp.

Correct. Problem is, how much damage has it caused already?

I would definitely establish what the situation is with the living room floor. Is it now a solid floor or still a suspended floor? If it is suspended, the vents must be unblocked and the timber examined for any rot or dry rot? You might be able to do that with a borescope from the vent - but you'd obviously need permission of the seller.

It's impossible to advise on costs; you might be looking at low hundreds for unblocking and investigation or you might be dealing with decay and dry rot costing thousands.

 

[RRoxanneM]

Thanks for your response John. I have been told several times today that they may have filled the floor to make it solid. The only thing i don't know is why it has been done.

Like you said it could be as its cheaper to replace any rotting timbers. Or is it an insulation method? Would it potentially keep that room warmer? as there is carpet on the floor currently and the living room was used by an older lady.

unblocking existing air bricks wouldn't be an issue or even adding additional ones but like you said, what damage has already been cause? We are unsure as we cant investigate by lifting the flooring up.

I have just lined up a damp and timber specialist to attend the property and due his best to check the issues.

 

[jeds]

You are asking all the right questions. Back in the day it wasn't uncommon to fit timber floors with minimal void beneath. These days, knowing the risk with that, if a floor is removed it can be a better option to replace with a solid floor.

It's all speculation at this stage, so I would find as much factual detail as you can and make the informed decisions from there.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Filling a failed (damp/rotten) suspended floor with concrete was a very common cheap fix. Problems;
Unlikely there is any insulation under the concrete
Quite likely no dpm under the concrete never mind proper hardcore base.
Quite possible the old rotten floor joists are still in the concrete, along with gas, water, heating pipes (depends how cowboy the concrete throwers were).
The concrete-filled front room floor will be blocking airflow to the suspended back room floor, thus accelerating rot in that one.

 

[JohnD]

Thanks for your response John. I have been told several times today that they may have filled the floor to make it solid. The only thing i don't know is why it has been done.

One distressingly common reason is that the wooden floor rotted due to damp, such as a leaking pipe. Instead of repairing it, they encase it in concrete. You now have a leak that is a hundred times harder to fix, and you still have damp

 

[RRoxanneM]

Filling a failed (damp/rotten) suspended floor with concrete was a very common cheap fix. Problems;
Unlikely there is any insulation under the concrete
Quite likely no dpm under the concrete never mind proper hardcore base.
Quite possible the old rotten floor joists are still in the concrete, along with gas, water, heating pipes (depends how cowboy the concrete throwers were).
The concrete-filled front room floor will be blocking airflow to the suspended back room floor, thus accelerating rot in that one.

It sounds horrendous doesn't it if all the above is correct. Is this something the seller should be aware of the floor being concreted? Basically the issue we have is we have little information on the history for the owners of that property. We believe it was bought in the 60s by the lady who was living there and in 2013 she gave ownership of the house to a family member. So whatever work has been done to the house, the owner is claiming to have no knowledge of this.

So she's technically saying any work that was carried out prior to 2013 is not her problem although I can guarantee (with her being a family member) that she is fully aware of all the work that has been carried out but will be reluctant to say.

 

[RRoxanneM]

One distressingly common reason is that the wooden floor rotted due to damp, such as a leaking pipe. Instead of repairing it, they encase it in concrete. You now have a leak that is a hundred times harder to fix, and you still have damp

You would think the owner of the property would be aware of this, if this is the reason for the floor being concrete?

The only reason it has been flagged up is when we had a building contractor walk around the property a few weeks ago and he mentioned the floor in the living room being solid but didnt say anything about why. I have had to do my own research into these types of houses and why the floor has been changed from suspended to a solid floor and its been flagged dup a few times by various people that it could be a possible existing damp/timber issue and they have infilled it.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Yerse ...in England you have more protection against dubious sellers when buying a £8 toaster than when you buy an £100,000 house.
Chasing any legal remedy after purchase will likely be unaffordable (cos civil law so no legal aid) so due diligence before purchase is essential.
Surveyors are not as useful as you'd like to think- again if the vendor will not allow any intrusive survey (lift carpets, move furniture) then they'll be guessing and covering themselves by saying x y z may be present or faulty or whatever.
For your purposes you have a budget of £x to buy a habitable home with. If your specialists suggest work to the value of £y is (or may be) needed for the basics you need to make your offer in the area of £x - £y. Others will have a different budget so seller may not accept your offer.

 

[RRoxanneM]

Yerse ...in England you have more protection against dubious sellers when buying a £8 toaster than when you buy an £100,000 house.
Chasing any legal remedy after purchase will likely be unaffordable (cos civil law so no legal aid) so due diligence before purchase is essential.
Surveyors are not as useful as you'd like to think- again if the vendor will not allow any intrusive survey (lift carpets, move furniture) then they'll be guessing and covering themselves by saying x y z may be present or faulty or whatever.
For your purposes you have a budget of £x to buy a habitable home with. If your specialists suggest work to the value of £y is (or may be) needed for the basics you need to make your offer in the area of £x - £y. Others will have a different budget so seller may not accept your offer.

The vendor wont allow any access to the flooring as they have said the vinyl flooring may be damaged in the process and then if we walk away from the property, the damage costs sit with them.

That concerns me slightly because
1. why would you say "if we walk away once the intrusive survey has been done"? (Its almost as if they are saying we are guaranteed to find some issues once we look)
2. They are being so protective over this vinyl floor even though that would be 1 of the very first things that gets removed from the property as they literally have it all over the house apart from the living room. Now I don't mind vinyl in the kitchen or bathroom but the rest of the house? Absolutely not. Its 2023 not 1960.

If we did walk away from the sale, any surveyor who attends that property will have to give a best guess estimation for the works and will have to cover themselves. The book doesn't stop with us. Albeit someone may come along and a specialist quotes a bit cheaper but without an intrusive survey, it will still only be a guess.

We currently have a damp and timber specialist attending this week so hopefully they can investigate in a bit more detail and let us know what they think cost wise. This will then be sent back to the seller for a reduction on price or for them to get the work carried out. If they want a more concrete quote then they really need to instruct a survey themselves for their own piece of mind.

We are even willing to pay 50% of the works dependent on the costs

 

[RRoxanneM]

One distressingly common reason is that the wooden floor rotted due to damp, such as a leaking pipe. Instead of repairing it, they encase it in concrete. You now have a leak that is a hundred times harder to fix, and you still have damp

Very frustrating. Unless your going to fix the damp first which from the report, sounds like they havent then applying concrete to the flooring will only mask the problem. But like you said, thus making it harder to fix.

 

[RRoxanneM]

Filling a failed (damp/rotten) suspended floor with concrete was a very common cheap fix. Problems;
Unlikely there is any insulation under the concrete
Quite likely no dpm under the concrete never mind proper hardcore base.
Quite possible the old rotten floor joists are still in the concrete, along with gas, water, heating pipes (depends how cowboy the concrete throwers were).
The concrete-filled front room floor will be blocking airflow to the suspended back room floor, thus accelerating rot in that one.

I am really hoping were wrong on this as it sounds like a disaster. But its been pointed out to us by a building contractor that its solid floor.

The flexing of the floor on the report was noted in the dining room area which is adjacent to the living room and that has suspended floor so all the air bricks that have been blocked from the front of the property will not be giving adequate air flow to the back as you mentioned.

The surveyor also could not identify any DPC. And I hope and pray they haven't infilled the floor with any gas or water pipers in there. Thinking about it now, radiator pipes go under the floor so they are probably going to be encased. This may be a silly question but is there any kind of document that you get where you can see where all the existing mechanical pipes are in your house? Like a topo survey?

 

[JohnD]

Anybody who had done such a stupid thing might try to keep quiet about it.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

I am really hoping were wrong on this as it sounds like a disaster. But its been pointed out to us by a building contractor that its solid floor.

The flexing of the floor on the report was noted in the dining room area which is adjacent to the living room and that has suspended floor so all the air bricks that have been blocked from the front of the property will not be giving adequate air flow to the back as you mentioned.

The surveyor also could not identify any DPC. And I hope and pray they haven't infilled the floor with any gas or water pipers in there. Thinking about it now, radiator pipes go under the floor so they are probably going to be encased. This may be a silly question but is there any kind of document that you get where you can see where all the existing mechanical pipes are in your house? Like a topo survey?

The ground floor thing isn't a disaster but it will take time, money and effort to sort it out, costs vary depending on where you are in the country and how much of the work you can/want to do yourself. Ground floors are usually very DIYable in older houses, budget in the thousand(s) rather than tens of thousands.
You'll not get any drawings of where heating, power, water, gas internal pipework is, you might get luckier with the suppliers cables/pipework. Again internal (after the meter/cu) pipes/cables aren't difficult to sort out.

 

[RRoxanneM]

The ground floor thing isn't a disaster but it will take time, money and effort to sort it out, costs vary depending on where you are in the country and how much of the work you can/want to do yourself. Ground floors are usually very DIYable in older houses, budget in the thousand(s) rather than tens of thousands.
You'll not get any drawings of where heating, power, water, gas internal pipework is, you might get luckier with the suppliers cables/pipework. Again internal (after the meter/cu) pipes/cables aren't difficult to sort out.

There are a few more things that need attention. The damp and timber is just one of them. For some reason the upstairs front bedroom feels like its sloping. Don't know whether that could be subsidence or the flooring.

There is also pull marks to the bay windows which suggests they haven't been tied in properly. Not sure whether this is a cause for concern or not.

We are happy to get all the work done to bring the property up to date (New bathroom, kitchen, flooring throughout, newly plastered & painted throughout etc) we offered the asking price based on that but anything that is a result of existing damp issues and timbers I definitely will be wanting the sellers to reduce the price, or carry out that side of work themselves without having to go back to the bank.

Its our first house, and I have definitely learnt a lot already just from speaking to people which has been helpful.