And I agree 100% with that - but there are those who like the perceived safety of employment and will go back to it at the first opportunity.
architect/technician what way forward for the industry?
- Thread starter architectforhire
- Start date
All very interesting.
I'm a Techy in employment at present....thankfully. I do the odd private job on the side (anything from single storey ext. to new build housing). I don't bother with PI, as once I have got the necessary approvals it's down to the builder to ensure all is done correctly on site....that's what building control are there for also.
If I was running the job on-site then that's another matter, but I don't. I walk away once I get the approvals.
I just tend to find there's plenty of cowboy 'Architects' who havn't got a clue what there doing + massively undercut you in order to get the job. The client has no idea who has 'the skills' + who hasn't........they just worry about the £££££'s
I'm a Techy in employment at present....thankfully. I do the odd private job on the side (anything from single storey ext. to new build housing). I don't bother with PI, as once I have got the necessary approvals it's down to the builder to ensure all is done correctly on site....that's what building control are there for also.
If I was running the job on-site then that's another matter, but I don't. I walk away once I get the approvals.
I just tend to find there's plenty of cowboy 'Architects' who havn't got a clue what there doing + massively undercut you in order to get the job. The client has no idea who has 'the skills' + who hasn't........they just worry about the £££££'s
I think he must be referring to architects undercutting each other rather than technicians at least I hope so! There are plenty of Architects who will undercut their competition, the work invested in the project is reduced to compensate and the client is the first loser followed by the industry as a whole. It is largely driven by clients though IMO who think nothing of dangling carrots and getting Architects to agree to prices and will happily play Architects off on each other in order for them to get the job.
That won't exonerate you if it all turns to rat shiite. Read up on Murphy v Brentwood, if you want to know just how much liability attaches to LABCDs...
The designer would have to be pretty crap to make a mistake with a typical domestic job.
If the site survey is accurate, the drawings accurate, the correct specification for construction materials, then there is not anything which he would be responsible should things go wrong witht he build.
The designer should remember to put the necessary disclaimers on the drawings
If the site survey is accurate, the drawings accurate, the correct specification for construction materials, then there is not anything which he would be responsible should things go wrong witht he build.
The designer should remember to put the necessary disclaimers on the drawings
If a punter is unhappy about anything and goes legal, the first thing a solicitor will do is fling sh*t in all directions in the hope that it will stick somewhere. Whether guilty of negligence or not, you still have to defend yourself, involving time and expense.
The point is Woods, it doesn't stop you getting dragged into the argument and merely pointing to disclaimers on drawings, or saying that you voz only followink orderz is not really a successful routine for exculpation.
Everyone else involved in the process carries insurance, why shouldn't a designer?
The point is Woods, it doesn't stop you getting dragged into the argument and merely pointing to disclaimers on drawings, or saying that you voz only followink orderz is not really a successful routine for exculpation.
Everyone else involved in the process carries insurance, why shouldn't a designer?
The point is though, that as an engineer there is the possibility, albeit low risk no doubt, of causing £1000's worth of damage and insurmountable damages should somebody ever be killed by a failing structure. In a tin pot £20,000 extension the likelihood of a major error costing £1000's worth of damage and insurmountable damages should somebody ever be killed because of it occurring due to the negligence of the designer is, I think, considerably less. I have never specified structural items in a design other than simple joist or rafter layouts, or lintels over small openings and never will as I am not qualified to do so. Frankly if as a designer you cause something to go wrong that costs thousands to put right you're in the wrong profession and its because of this that I and others, for the time being at least are prepared to avoid PI and take a risk. Life is all about risks, when you cross the road or take a skiing holiday without health insurance, we all (or should) add up the risk factors and make our decisions based on those risks.
Don't necessarily disagree with your pov, and I am certainly not risk-averse; however, in these litigious times, I am not prepared to put all that I have on the line, just so slimy little rat of a lawyer can come and snaffle it based on some spurious interpretation of law.
As an example: building being constructed was totalled when contractor's equipment caught fire. Legals resulted in both architect's and engineer's PII paying out. Work that one out.
As an example: building being constructed was totalled when contractor's equipment caught fire. Legals resulted in both architect's and engineer's PII paying out. Work that one out.
Morning all 
I know you technically should have PI; but technically you should also have travel insurance, health insurance + contents insurance because you COULD end up in difficulties. If you worry about what COULD happen in life, the list is endless as to the precautions you take.
You balance the risk involved against the cost of insuring yourself against the risk. It's an individual choice, you loose some + you win some.....it's life. I only work on 'simple' housing, dormers + extensions, so to me the risk is calculated as comparatively low.
When I do a job for somebody I explain my liability to a client, don't put my name to any drawings/forms. My fee reflects the fact I don't have PI, don't work from an office or 'look professional' when I go see the client. But I do the work to a professional standard (as per my work 9-5 during the working week), on time + absolutely to the very best of my abilities. If there is a problem with an application I do more than most to resolve it so the client is happy.
If I am to get a call from a solicitor in the future, so be it - I will deal with it. It's my approach for now, and tbh it's the view of most people I know in a similar position.
I know you technically should have PI; but technically you should also have travel insurance, health insurance + contents insurance because you COULD end up in difficulties. If you worry about what COULD happen in life, the list is endless as to the precautions you take.
You balance the risk involved against the cost of insuring yourself against the risk. It's an individual choice, you loose some + you win some.....it's life. I only work on 'simple' housing, dormers + extensions, so to me the risk is calculated as comparatively low.
When I do a job for somebody I explain my liability to a client, don't put my name to any drawings/forms. My fee reflects the fact I don't have PI, don't work from an office or 'look professional' when I go see the client. But I do the work to a professional standard (as per my work 9-5 during the working week), on time + absolutely to the very best of my abilities. If there is a problem with an application I do more than most to resolve it so the client is happy.
If I am to get a call from a solicitor in the future, so be it - I will deal with it. It's my approach for now, and tbh it's the view of most people I know in a similar position.
As a designer, technician, surveyor, whatever, you will be classed as an expert and the client will be entitled to rely on your advice and guidance. You will usually be one of the first in line and in small works situations you will often be the ONLY one in line. If something goes wrong you will have to fight your corner. Even if it appears to be nothing to do with you. English law is littered with cases where the person who got screwed was only on the periphery but some judge said it doesn't matter, you are the expert and you should have anticipated all the eventualities.
What I don't get though is why take the risk? Spread across a years fees the amount per client is relatively small.
What I don't get though is why take the risk? Spread across a years fees the amount per client is relatively small.
But what error can occur on a planning drawing or even a building regs drawing?
As I say I only work on dormers, extensions + occasional house new builds......you put together a drawing representing what the building is going to look like + then a more detailed drawing showing the construction method + a few details. Once you obtain permissions, the client can't say 'we built this to your drawings/spec but it doesn't meet the requirements'.
I've had an example where the client built the extension larger than my drawings + used different facing materials. My drawings gained approvals because of the dimensions + spec quoted on them. The client decided to build it differently......they have no recourse at all with me + understand that.
Give me an example of what can occur + I'll gladly get a quotation for PI. How much is a PI annually? £400-500
As I say I only work on dormers, extensions + occasional house new builds......you put together a drawing representing what the building is going to look like + then a more detailed drawing showing the construction method + a few details. Once you obtain permissions, the client can't say 'we built this to your drawings/spec but it doesn't meet the requirements'.
I've had an example where the client built the extension larger than my drawings + used different facing materials. My drawings gained approvals because of the dimensions + spec quoted on them. The client decided to build it differently......they have no recourse at all with me + understand that.
Give me an example of what can occur + I'll gladly get a quotation for PI. How much is a PI annually? £400-500
H
hotrod
Contractor builds to your as drawn specifications and the structure fails 15 months after completion. Investigations reveal structure is constructed as specified by you and contractor absolved of any responsibility in respect of materials and workmanship.
I read somewhere once that the majority of claims are not for things you do but things you don't do. When it happens it will most likely be something like an easement over the property or some other restriction or legality that only shows up when the client comes to sell the house. Suddenly they will be faced with costs to possibly remove extensions and make good plus the lost sale, lost time, injury due to stress, marketing costs. That could add up to tens of thousands in no time, even for the smallest of works. If it's 5 years later all the detail of who said what and what was agreed and what you were asked to do or not do will be lost by the passage of time. The clients solicitor will lay it on like peanut butter.
Which leads on to Terms and conditions. These are always important but if you operate without PII they are all the more important. You absolutely must get them signed by the client before you do any work and they need to be checked by a good solicitor to make sure they will protect you in 5, 6, 7 years time. Without them you will be a sitting duck.
Which leads on to Terms and conditions. These are always important but if you operate without PII they are all the more important. You absolutely must get them signed by the client before you do any work and they need to be checked by a good solicitor to make sure they will protect you in 5, 6, 7 years time. Without them you will be a sitting duck.
Terms + conditions I can understand:
Eg - these dwg's are for purposes of Planning + Building Regulations only, any details / works on site are responsibilty of the client + contractor.
It's worthwhile to put any/all disclaimers on the drawing + to get a standard 'Terms and Conditions' document signed by the client.
It would also be interesting to know how PI works. If I'm paying for PI for 3/4 years + then decide not to do any further private jobs, and then a client has a problem 5 yrs later, what happens? At the time of the claim I have finished paying for a PI, but at the time of the job I was paying for a PI. Am I covered or not?
Apologies for the lack of knowledge on this.
Eg - these dwg's are for purposes of Planning + Building Regulations only, any details / works on site are responsibilty of the client + contractor.
It's worthwhile to put any/all disclaimers on the drawing + to get a standard 'Terms and Conditions' document signed by the client.
It would also be interesting to know how PI works. If I'm paying for PI for 3/4 years + then decide not to do any further private jobs, and then a client has a problem 5 yrs later, what happens? At the time of the claim I have finished paying for a PI, but at the time of the job I was paying for a PI. Am I covered or not?
Apologies for the lack of knowledge on this.