Danfoss TP9000, TP5000 & Smart Heating

[Daint]

Hello all,

I'm thinking of buying either Tado, Hive or Nest for my house. I live in a relatively new build 3 story townhouse in the UK with the Danfoss TP9000 thermostat / hot water programmer on the ground floor next to my Ideal Logic 15 boiler, a Danfoss TS2 sensor in the living room. Then I have a Megaflo cylinder on the first floor and a Danfoss TP5000 thermostat on the second / top floor - I've uploaded a photo to this post to illustrate (quite badly).

I now know that the TS2 sensor is connected to the TP9000, and that the TP9000 should be relatively straight forward to replace by any of the products. However I'm a little confused by the TP5000 and what I would need.

I have two independent heating zones, one controlled by each thermostat and so I expect I may need two of something. The products I've mentioned above appear to support multiple heating zones but I would imagine I need sensors of some form in the regions where both thermostats are currently located. But I need to understand more about what I need and how it would all link together.

Reading on this forum it seems like others have got the Tado to work by replacing the TP9000 with a Tado Extension Kit (for heating & hot water), having a Tado Thermostat on the ground floor - and disconnecting the TS2 sensor. I'm still trying to find out if it's just a question of a further Tado Thermostat in the master bedroom but the posts I've read seem to suggest that.

For Nest it seems like it might involve two independent Heat Links plus thermostats - which works out a bit more pricey plus it means I'll have quite a few devices to fit / power. It also seems overkill to have two Heat Links, but that's my understanding. I haven't been able to find any examples of anyone with the same setup as myself though.

For Hive, I think it might just be a question of the starter kit with Hive Heating & Hot Water Thermostat (which includes receiver and hub) then a Multiroom Thermostat - but then again, is it this simple? Or might I need an additional receiver? I can appreciate that the switch is closed within the TP5000 and so may need a receiver to replicate that - unless of course the TP5000 feeds into the TP9000 and there's some way to control both loops from there. Again, haven't been able to find examples of my same setup.

For the Hive and Nest, I'm a little confused by the multizone thermostats if for each, you need an additional receiver / Heat Link - or am I missing something.

This post isn't so much of a direct question, but keen to hear from others who can add anything to my understanding of the way that the various products might work in my configuration.

Thanks
Rob

 

[Daint]

So looking at the wiring diagram (attached), I think I can see why I might need an additional Heat Link (Nest) / receiver (Hive). The TP5000 appears to connect directly to the cylinder and so I need some way of closing that circuit.

With only two wires going to the TP5000 (Live & Br into Heating Valve 2) I'm wondering if that can actually be directly replaced by any of the smart products or whether I'm going to need to put the receiver / Heat Link / Tado next to my cylinder.

 

[stem]

The three products you mention come in base form with control of one heating zone. But they can all be extended to include an additional thermostat for a second heating zone. Here's a quick summary.

Hive
A dual channel Hive receiver that gives control of one heating zone and hot water, would replace the existing TP9000. With Hive, the wiring terminals are exactly the same as the TP9000 [N, L, 1, 2, 3, 4,] The remote sensor in the TP9000 terminals 5 & 6 is simply disconnected and removed. The Hive room thermostat is a separate item that is battery operated that communicates wirelessly. This replaces the TS2 sensor.

The wiring presently going to the TP5000 would be re-routed to a single channel Hive receiver for control of the second heating Zone. This also has a second separate battery operated Hive room thermostat that positioned where the TP5000 is presently located.

Hive requires a separate hub to be connected to your router to connect it to the internet.

Nest
Nest only comes in one version. The Nest receiver (Heat Link) gives control of one heating zone and hot water and would replace the existing TP9000. With Nest the wiring terminals are different, so some reconfiguration is required. The Nest room thermostat is a separate item that is powered either by wiring it to the Heat Link, or by using a separate plug in power supply.

The wiring presently going to the TP5000 would be re routed to a second Heat Link for control of the second heating Zone (The hot water part of the second Heat Link won't be used). This also has a separate Nest room thermostat.

Tado
A Tado thermostat plus an extension kit (Receiver) gives control of one heating zone and hot water. This would replace the TP9000. With the Tado extension kit, the wiring terminals are exactly the same as the TP9000 [N, L, 1, 2, 3, 4,] The remote sensor in the TP9000 terminals 5 & 6 is simply disconnected and removed.

A second Tado thermostat can be wired in directly so will replace the upstairs TP5000 without a separate receiver.

Tado requires a separate internet bridge to be connected to your router to connect it to the internet.

Note regarding the TP5000.
Some versions are battery powered and some are mains powered. If you go for Hive or Nest and you have the battery powered version a new 230V supply will be required for the Hive or Nest receiver.

 

[Daint]

@stem That’s absolutely great, thanks for taking the time to write that.

Would it be fair to say that the Tado is the only solution that would mean I have no need to place an additional device near my cylinder (or additional cabling to my cylinder)? It seems that the wires presented to the TP5000 in my master bedroom would support the Tado (providing it’d 230v as you suggest) but that they wouldn’t necessarily support the recievers of the other two - or have I got that wrong?

Shame that the v3+ model of Tado has subscription because that was the front runner for me, but may look around for a v3 if I’ve understood correctly above.

Thanks

 

[stem]

The easiest DIY route is usually to disconnect the existing wires from the programmer (downstairs) and thermostat (upstairs) and reconnect them to the new receivers (or new thermostat upstairs in the case of Tado). This avoids having to making changes at the wiring centre, which can be very risky for someone, unless they know exactly where each wire goes, and what it actually does.

As you suspect, the Tado would probably be the easiest to install, especially if the upstairs TP5000 is powered by 230V. As the thermostat would be a straight swap. (Unless it's the battery powered version then a new 230V supply will be required)

Regarding the hot water control, with any of the three, there is no need to touch the wiring to the hot water cylinder, that remains as it is. The only change to the hot water control is replacing the existing programmer with a new receiver.

 

[Daint]

Thanks @stem, I may get the v3 Tado and give it a try.

 

[stem]

OK, Once you have selected a product, if you need any help, post back.

EDIT
Just re-read what I wrote earlier...

As you suspect, the Tado would probably be the easiest to install, especially if the upstairs TP5000 is powered by 230V. As the thermostat would be a straight swap. (Unless it's the battery powered version then a new 230V supply will be required).

...which is wrong. The wired Tado thermostat doesn't need 230V, so it doesn't matter if the existing thermostat is battery powered; so is the Tado. Sorry for the duff info. I was getting confused with the Hive / Nest receivers.

 

[Daint]

Thanks for the clarification @stem.

So I’ve purchased the Tado Extension Kit, Smart Thermostat Starter Kit and an additional Smart Thermostat.

I replaced my TP9000 with the Extension Kit and Starter Kit in no time at all, it really was a breeze and the help here and on Tados website made it really straight forward.

However the replacement to the TP5000 doesn’t seem quite so straight forward. I took the additional thermostat out of the box and followed the instructions, unfortunately the only instructions were to pair with the bridge again and this now just appears as an additional thermostat and no further instructions - nothing about wiring and it’s currently (understandably) unaware of the additional heating zone.

Even though I’m happy to follow instructions here, it seems strange given how good the instructions were for the TP9000 replacement - it’s making me question whether I’ve started this additional device off wrong. This document: http://www.free-instruction-manuals.com/pdf/pa_1184164.pdf seems to suggest (page 8 ) wiring to COM and NO, but can't find anything official from Tado.

Does anyone have any ideas? I’ve taken the batteries out of the additional thermostat for now, the TP5000 is still in control of my upper floors.

Thanks

 

[stem]

Glad the TP9000 is working. I would have expected that to be the more difficult part.

The TP5000 connections are:

and the Tado:

So from the above diagrams:
TP5000 (2) = Tado (Com)
TP5000 (3) = Tado (NO)

 

[Daint]

Excellent @stem, and will the Tado just recognise that it’s suddenly controlling another zone? As in, i assume it’s now sharing control of the ground floor but connecting the wires will stop this ground floor control and the thermostat will begin control of the wired zone (upper floors)? Happy to give it a try either way.

I did add the device against another room when I set it up.

 

[stem]

Sorry, I can't really help with the set up, and I haven't done a Tado dual zone. Once I've wired them in, I tend to just follow the instructions without really remembering the set up process step by step.

 

[Daint]

So I've now installed the additional thermostat in place of the TP5000, wired as per above. Strangely (although I'm not completely surprised) it's controlled the radiators on the ground floor, it's as though the wiring hasn't necessarily made a difference. I'm going to try various temperature settings to see if I can see a pattern.

I did leave the batteries in on the assumption that the wires wouldn’t provide power, not sure if that matters or if I need to reset the thermostat for it to understand that it’s no longer in control of the ground floor remotely...

 

[stem]

It won't be a wiring issue. Electrically speaking, your original controls were simply 'on and off' switches and you have exchanged them for 'on and off' switches, like for like. So the wiring hasn't really changed. The problem appears to be that the upstairs thermostat has been paired with the downstairs receiver (extension kit) and is switching that wirelessly.

There should be a way of resetting the upstairs tado back to its factory settings and then starting its set up again but without paring it to the downstairs receiver. If you can't manage to do it, then tado will be able to assist you if you call their helpline 020 3893 2059. There is also an on line email and chat facility.

 

[Daint]

Thanks @stem, I’ve logged a ticket with Tado support.

 

[stem]

If you could post back how you got on I would be interested to know, and it might help others that see this thread later when looking for help with the same thing.