Earth Loop Impedance Testing

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Sooner or later something on a larger scale will happen as a result of shoddy electrical work before the powers that be finally do something .We see theses tragedies happen all the time here in the U.S. particularly with people who loose there lives in house fires or are electrocuted. You would think by now we'd of learned something from our mistakes and enforce stiffer penelities
and Improve the system by developing some basic testing standards

 

[PBC_1966]

While commercial locations have long had some sort of control in the form of the Health & Safety at Work Act, The Factories Act and so on, when it comes to regular residential situations there was no regulation whatsoever in the U.K. before 2005.

Certainly electricians registered with one of the various schemes were required as a condition of that membership to work to the generally accepted wiring standard (the old IEE Wiring Regulations, now BS7671) and to be subject to having their work reviewed occasionally, but there was (and still is) no official licensing of anyone trading as an electrician, nor any requirement for a householder doing DIY electrical work to get a building permit or have his work inspected. There was a lot of bad workmanship from other trades doing wiring as part of some other project, e.g. kitchen-fitters adding or moving sockets etc.

A new part of the Building Regulations introduced in 2005 (search for "Part P") brought domestic wiring under control of the local authorities for the first time. It set out that a lot of more major electrical work needed to be either (a) done by a registered electrician under one of the schemes or (b) be reported to the local authority as for much other building work and then inspected.

That became something of a fiasco, since local building control departments weren't set up to handle it, and many local building inspectors had no real idea about electrical matters. Some authorities tried to insist that anyone doing DIY work then had to get a registered electrician in to inspect and test at his own extra expense, which they weren't allowed to do but tried anyway.

Some more minor works were exempted from notification, but the list was badly drafted, often made little sense as to notifiable vs. non-notifiable jobs, and in many places was very ambiguous in meaning anyway. It's been revised a couple of times since then: I've not bothered to follow the details of the changes since leaving England, but I believe the list of notifiable work is now drastically reduced - Perhaps someone else can confirm.

Isn't there now also some "domestic installer" scheme, which is supposed to be a 5-day crash course on wiring, leading to being able to self-certify the same as a regular registered electrician?

The whole thing is a farce.

 

[Bus bar]

While commercial locations have long had some sort of control in the form of the Health & Safety at Work Act, The Factories Act and so on, when it comes to regular residential situations there was no regulation whatsoever in the U.K. before 2005.

Certainly electricians registered with one of the various schemes were required as a condition of that membership to work to the generally accepted wiring standard (the old IEE Wiring Regulations, now BS7671) and to be subject to having their work reviewed occasionally, but there was (and still is) no official licensing of anyone trading as an electrician, nor any requirement for a householder doing DIY electrical work to get a building permit or have his work inspected. There was a lot of bad workmanship from other trades doing wiring as part of some other project, e.g. kitchen-fitters adding or moving sockets etc.

A new part of the Building Regulations introduced in 2005 (search for "Part P") brought domestic wiring under control of the local authorities for the first time. It set out that a lot of more major electrical work needed to be either (a) done by a registered electrician under one of the schemes or (b) be reported to the local authority as for much other building work and then inspected.

That became something of a fiasco, since local building control departments weren't set up to handle it, and many local building inspectors had no real idea about electrical matters. Some authorities tried to insist that anyone doing DIY work then had to get a registered electrician in to inspect and test at his own extra expense, which they weren't allowed to do but tried anyway.

Some more minor works were exempted from notification, but the list was badly drafted, often made little sense as to notifiable vs. non-notifiable jobs, and in many places was very ambiguous in meaning anyway. It's been revised a couple of times since then: I've not bothered to follow the details of the changes since leaving England, but I believe the list of notifiable work is now drastically reduced - Perhaps someone else can confirm.

Isn't there now also some "domestic installer" scheme, which is supposed to be a 5-day crash course on wiring, leading to being able to self-certify the same as a regular registered electrician?

If you mean here in the U.S. Not that I have heard of but would not be at all surprised??
Most of what I see here is the big DIY retail giants getting there hands into the market share of installing everything . They provide 1/2 day courses to homeowners and others for everything that they can sell you. There is too much of this work out there that should be really done by a professional . The DIY chains somehow manage to avoid and find loop hole that the rest of us working professional Adhere to . I remember a scientist from woods hole telling me about the internet before it came about. He was over my head and I had no idea of what he was talking about.."how the Internet would Change the world and how business would be done and so many other things.everything he said was true!!!!
As a small business owner the biggest proble is marketing my services
There are so many jack of all trades jumping into the ring doing it themselves
It used to be an electrical contracted did electrical work now it is every One and his brother doing every one else's work
Like plumbers doing everything electrical and so many other trades affected by these changes.We let it happen and there is no way to prevent it with everything on the web
It's a circus over here. I carry liability insurance for my business but most of these DIY er's get away with it under the table. I'm sure it's catching on in the UK
Any moves to change the inspection process over there or do most feel it's good enough. Here it is all the manufacturers and the special interest groups who are running it into the ground. They get wined and dined and we get we need more of this and more of that and the politicians well they just avoid everybody











The whole thing is a farce.

 

[Bus bar]

While commercial locations have long had some sort of control in the form of the Health & Safety at Work Act, The Factories Act and so on, when it comes to regular residential situations there was no regulation whatsoever in the U.K. before 2005.

Certainly electricians registered with one of the various schemes were required as a condition of that membership to work to the generally accepted wiring standard (the old IEE Wiring Regulations, now BS7671) and to be subject to having their work reviewed occasionally, but there was (and still is) no official licensing of anyone trading as an electrician, nor any requirement for a householder doing DIY electrical work to get a building permit or have his work inspected. There was a lot of bad workmanship from other trades doing wiring as part of some other project, e.g. kitchen-fitters adding or moving sockets etc.

A new part of the Building Regulations introduced in 2005 (search for "Part P") brought domestic wiring under control of the local authorities for the first time. It set out that a lot of more major electrical work needed to be either (a) done by a registered electrician under one of the schemes or (b) be reported to the local authority as for much other building work and then inspected.

That became something of a fiasco, since local building control departments weren't set up to handle it, and many local building inspectors had no real idea about electrical matters. Some authorities tried to insist that anyone doing DIY work then had to get a registered electrician in to inspect and test at his own extra expense, which they weren't allowed to do but tried anyway.

Some more minor works were exempted from notification, but the list was badly drafted, often made little sense as to notifiable vs. non-notifiable jobs, and in many places was very ambiguous in meaning anyway. It's been revised a couple of times since then: I've not bothered to follow the details of the changes since leaving England, but I believe the list of notifiable work is now drastically reduced - Perhaps someone else can confirm.

Isn't there now also some "domestic installer" scheme, which is supposed to be a 5-day crash course on wiring, leading to being able to self-certify the same as a regular registered electrician?

If you mean here in the U.S. Not that I have heard of but would not be at all surprised??
Most of what I see here is the big DIY retail giants getting there hands into the market share of installing everything . They provide 1/2 day courses to homeowners and others for everything that they can sell you. There is too much of this work out there that should be really done by a professional . The DIY chains somehow manage to avoid and find loop hole that the rest of us working professional Adhere to . I remember a scientist from woods hole telling me about the internet before it came about. He was over my head and I had no idea of what he was talking about.."how the Internet would Change the world and how business would be done and so many other things.everything he said was true!!!!
As a small business owner the biggest proble is marketing my services
There are so many jack of all trades jumping into the ring doing it themselves
It used to be an electrical contracted did electrical work now it is every One and his brother doing every one else's work
Like plumbers doing everything electrical and so many other trades affected by these changes.We let it happen and there is no way to prevent it with everything on the web
It's a circus over here. I carry liability insurance for my business but most of these DIY er's get away with it under the table. I'm sure it's catching on in the UK
Any moves to change the inspection process over there or do most feel it's good enough. Here it is all the manufacturers and the special interest groups who are running it into the ground. They get wined and dined and we get we need more of this and more of that and the politicians well they just avoid everybody. Oh I forgot the latest is all of these solar installations that we have allowed unlicensed electrician to take over that arena












The whole thing is a farce.

 

[Bus bar]

While commercial locations have long had some sort of control in the form of the Health & Safety at Work Act, The Factories Act and so on, when it comes to regular residential situations there was no regulation whatsoever in the U.K. before 2005.

Certainly electricians registered with one of the various schemes were required as a condition of that membership to work to the generally accepted wiring standard (the old IEE Wiring Regulations, now BS7671) and to be subject to having their work reviewed occasionally, but there was (and still is) no official licensing of anyone trading as an electrician, nor any requirement for a householder doing DIY electrical work to get a building permit or have his work inspected. There was a lot of bad workmanship from other trades doing wiring as part of some other project, e.g. kitchen-fitters adding or moving sockets etc.

A new part of the Building Regulations introduced in 2005 (search for "Part P") brought domestic wiring under control of the local authorities for the first time. It set out that a lot of more major electrical work needed to be either (a) done by a registered electrician under one of the schemes or (b) be reported to the local authority as for much other building work and then inspected.

That became something of a fiasco, since local building control departments weren't set up to handle it, and many local building inspectors had no real idea about electrical matters. Some authorities tried to insist that anyone doing DIY work then had to get a registered electrician in to inspect and test at his own extra expense, which they weren't allowed to do but tried anyway.

Some more minor works were exempted from notification, but the list was badly drafted, often made little sense as to notifiable vs. non-notifiable jobs, and in many places was very ambiguous in meaning anyway. It's been revised a couple of times since then: I've not bothered to follow the details of the changes since leaving England, but I believe the list of notifiable work is now drastically reduced - Perhaps someone else can confirm.

Isn't there now also some "domestic installer" scheme, which is supposed to be a 5-day crash course on wiring, leading to being able to self-certify the same as a regular registered electrician?

If you mean here in the U.S. Not that I have heard of but would not be at all surprised??
Most of what I see here is the big DIY retail giants getting there hands into the market share of installing everything . They provide 1/2 day courses to homeowners and others for everything that they can sell you. There is too much of this work out there that should be really done by a professional . The DIY chains somehow manage to avoid and find loop hole that the rest of us working professional Adhere to . I remember a scientist from woods hole telling me about the internet before it came about. He was over my head and I had no idea of what he was talking about.."how the Internet would Change the world and how business would be done and so many other things.everything he said was true!!!!
As a small business owner the biggest proble is marketing my services
There are so many jack of all trades jumping into the ring doing it themselves
It used to be an electrical contracted did electrical work now it is every One and his brother doing every one else's work
Like plumbers doing everything electrical and so many other trades affected by these changes.We let it happen and there is no way to prevent it with everything on the web
It's a circus over here. I carry liability insurance for my business but most of these DIY er's get away with it under the table. I'm sure it's catching on in the UK
Any moves to change the inspection process over there or do most feel it's good enough. Here it is all the manufacturers and the special interest groups who are running it into the ground. They get wined and dined and we get we need more of this and more of that and the politicians well they just avoid everybody. Oh I forgot the latest is all of these solar installations that we have allowed unlicensed electrician to take over that arena












The whole thing is a farce.

 

[Bus bar]

I should mention the requirement here in Massachusetts is 8,000 hr of practical on the job training and 600 hr of schooling to be eligable to sit for the licensed journeyman exam. Pass it then Wait another year of work experience and another 100 or 150 hrs to take master electrician exam. As I mentioned it all mostly code driven and no lab time required for practical .can you imagine? It not there fault they don't know any better.Most of the training offer thru night schoolevening classes . Some day programs for adults. Juniors in high go on to vocational days a little better program but still lacking theory as compared to other Countries electrical apprenticeships programs

 

[Bus bar]

Glad everyone got off the Brittish Airways 777 in Las Vagas safely .Did someone say they earlier they were American Engines? Good job by the pilot and crew. Can't imagine
Counting the minutes watching on TV

 

[PBC_1966]

If you mean here in the U.S. Not that I have heard of but would not be at all surprised??

No, I was referring to the U.K.

Most of what I see here is the big DIY retail giants getting there hands into the market share of installing everything . They provide 1/2 day courses to homeowners and others for everything that they can sell you.

The likes of the big blue and orange stores often seem to have people who really aren't qualified to give advice on the things they sell, but do anyway. Of course, that's not just in America, but often in the equivalent places in Britain too.

Oh I forgot the latest is all of these solar installations that we have allowed unlicensed electrician to take over that arena

And how about the whole issue of the solar lease scams? My wife and I just moved into our present home about 3 months ago, but during our search one of the homes we looked at and were really interested in had solar panels on the roof. It turned out they were on a lease arrangement, and I was horrified when I saw all the terms in the paperwork. The present owners had been conned into signing a 25-year lease at almost $300 per month, on the promise of how much they'd supposedly save over that period in paying PG&E. Then the terms locked them into either taking the system with them when moving (which they couldn't if they'd wanted to, as they were moving outside the service area), having the new owners agree to take on the remainder of the lease (still over 24 years to run), or negotiating a buyout of the complete system.

We were really interested in the house and even contacted the company to see what kind of deal they might cut, just to terminate the lease and remove their equipment, figuring that a few extra thousand to the current owners might be worth it to us to get the house. They came back with a "really great deal" of almost $50,000! I feel bad for the owners who got suckered into this, but I really don't know what they must have been thinking when they agreed to it.

 

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I went through an intensive six month training course on solar installation a few year ago. Passed the NABCEP exam
all worth while given that fact that the training was provided at no cost. I was thinking it might open up new markets and wanted to be in on the ground floor
The utility companies were given
Government mandates to cut back on burning fossil fuels and lower our dependency on oil for some sixty billion in subsidies so they offered SREC'S ( renewable energy credits to investors to install solar. There is now a whole slu of start ups solar co. The solar co spend Hugh some of money to buy in marketing with
Sure enough the Big orange DIY. They
Provide store space to push for the manufactures and bigger solar co
Solar began with the big players buying up all of the energy credit in the commercial end and the move into residential space by offering to install it at no fee Leaving no space for small business to get a hand in it. They mostly lease the systems by lease agreement which really means a lien on you property Making if difficult to get out of the contract

 

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It all started with the wind turbines..
That' s a real disaster in many ways.
There was no zoning in place when they started installing these massive turbines
One town near here installed one near a residential neighborhood
Huge problems developed for residents nearby not getting any sleep listening to the noise and flicker associated with the blades turning. Then the lawers got involved. Turns out permitting was over looked and it will cost the town 8 million to take it down. It back fired at town meeting where tax payers would have to foot the bill that nobody wanted in the first place and every tax payer would would now have to deal with the financial burden as a result of the towns mistake

Still Hasn't happened yet as legal battle continues

 

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Getting back to loop impedance testing
I was wondering if any UK electricians
Might share pros and cons of using 1654b tester . Seems like this is the latest model for particular co. I know there are similar meters out there? Would be interested to here about those
Will the 1654b save records for certain?
Or it all has to upload at some point?
My other question is when you perform the earth loop impedance test in the UK you are using the live and the earth wire
Or did you mean live and neutral wire which we call the grounded neutral wire?
Or do the test on both sets?

 

[PBC_1966]

They mostly lease the systems by lease agreement which really means a lien on you property Making if difficult to get out of the contract

Sure enough, I was curious enough to check back later and the place we'd been interested in buying didn't sell, but was pulled from the real estate listings a short time later. I know the owners were ready to leave within a short time as they already had somewhere lined up in Santa Rosa to be nearer family. I happened to drive by the neighborhood a couple of weeks ago and saw new people in the house, so I assume they probably just ended up renting it out.

There aren't too many of these deals around this area yet it seems (this was the first time our realtor had come across one), but I've seen a few. I understand it's already become a big issue in parts of Arizona where the solar companies have been pretty aggressive at marketing.

It all started with the wind turbines..

At least I haven't seen a single one around here, but then this part of state has generally very low wind speeds on average (there were actually a couple of days last week with a lovely gentle breeze - very welcome when it's over 100 degrees).

 

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L

So the real big question is why don't we loop test here in the USA. Some have said ,it's because it not in the NEC and the instrument manufactures are reluctant to launch the units here for that reason.There is no code that says we have use a multi meters , clamp meters to test voltage or amperage either. It would seem like a really good idea. Many time I have customers that have fires , floods . It would be an excellent way in my opinion to trouble GFCI problems .loop test to located the affected areas.To narrow it down we then then could use a megger to find the melted wires. The loop test would be a terrific trouble shooting tool for finding high impedance ,loose connection and to prevent fires , also takes us of the hook in a court of law that our work was tested at the time of installation .

Loop testing and insulation testing are excellent tools, in my opinion. Back in the 1950's/60's Megger used to publish a lot of little booklets to accompany its range of test meters explaining the benefits of such tests, and setting out how keeping records over a period of time could enable potential issues (deteriorating insulation in motor windings, for example) to be detected before they became full-fledged problems requiring immediate attention.

However the rule book which is not law is universal our BS7671 lays out what we should do with low voltage (below 1kV) and is regarded as being law by many.

The National Electrical Code here is not law in itself either, however just about all jurisdictions adopt it into their state or local building codes, thus requiring it to be followed (although obviously there is a lot of unpermitted work which can be as good or as bad as that found in Britain). The NEC is generally revised every 3 years or so, but does not automatically become the new standard when published, since each state has to adopt it formally. Some states seem to be quick at adopting the new editions, while others sometimes lag two or three editions behind. States can adopt the NEC as is, or can make amendments imposing stricter requirements or relaxing certain requirements. Counties and cities can also introduce local amendments, e.g. while NM-type cable (Romex - equivalent to British T&E) is generally permitted throughout normal residential construction the City of Chicago doesn't allow it, requiring everything to be run in conduit or equivalent.

Will the loop impedance tester trip on test a combination arc fault breaker? Like it will an RCD?

Yes, any combination AFCI/GFCI is liable to be tripped due to the earth current.

I read on wiki that the arc fault needs to see 75amps arc magnitude to trip This is with the newer combo type. They must be talking about the interrupt current? The electronic sense coil must be in the mili amp range I would think? So that would test the trip sencer. How would you test the 75amp
Threshold?
Would using a fluke 1654b perform this test?

Will the tester produce a series arc or parallel arc to test the breaker is function
I have heard arc fault have some limits?

I've not had dealings with AFCI's personally, but I'm not struck on the whole idea. I remember debating with some of my American friends when they starting appearing widely, and many of them had concerns about their usefulness as well. I recall there had also been some tests done which showed they were pretty ineffective with certain types of arcing anyway (I can't remember if it was parallel arcing such as from a damaged cable with lines in contact or series arcing under load such as could happen at a loose connection). Leading back to the original point, I'd much rather employ good wiring practices backed up with thorough testing to ensure that arc faults are unlikely to happen anyway.

Wire nuts were used on early UK installations, they were called 'Screwits' and were made of ceramic material. They were prone to falling off, no matter how well fitted. Maybe that's why they have a bad reputation here.

My feelings are that wire nuts as used here are perfectly fine so long as the correct size is selected for the conductors to be joined and that they are installed correctly. The metal coil spring inside bites into the conductors slightly to give a good, tight connection. They've been in widespread use for over half a century now, so if there were any real concerns they would have been abandoned long ago. The problems come when somebody doesn't line up the conductors properly or tries to get by with one which is too large or too small for the conductors. Or simply doesn't tighten it down properly, of course!

What I would like to see scrapped are the horrible push-in terminations on some of the cheaper receptacles and switches. I'm sure that the few seconds they save on installation must be far outweighed by the time spent replacing them later when the connections start working loose.

 

[Bus bar]

I read on wiki that AFCI breaker will need to see 75amp of arc fault current to trip. I assume they mean interrupt current
The test current to trip the electronic sensor coil would be in the low
range maybe mili amps perhaps?ok to
Use a 1654b for that as it can deliver about 20amps of test current .
Any way to test the 75 amp they are talking about?

 

[PBC_1966]

I'm not even sure that 75A figure holds across all brands of AFCI, as it seems that different manufacturers have gone different ways, so there's no easy way to test whether an AFCI meets its design specification without knowing its specific characteristics.