Is there actually any reason for tamper protection?

[Mikefromlondon]

I am sure if a house owner had an alarm system fitted, his insurance would question why it was not set by the owner when he left his premises even just to go to local shops, they can decline payoff, this happened to a mate of mine, he didn't set his alarm on when he went shopping in his local Tesco, came back to find his house got burgled from a rear window prised open, his insurance declined to pay him around 5K losses of valuable items including jewelry and some cash, if the house owner claimed it was set, but for some reason it didn't go off, they (insurance company) may seek a report from an independent alarm technician to determine why alarm didn't set off, he may find there was no tamper circuit wired up. So as an installer you should wire it up as a matter of course, even if you may find it is doing very little for domestic customers.

 

[PaulUszak]

"Lots of effort"?

Sorry, I'm not criticising. I'm trying to do a good job in a quarter of the time for half the budget. Usual story. It's just that I've looked at some alarm accessories like surface contacts that might go with a new alarm panel. I also Google Imagesed “EOL shunt resistors”. I found, including one from our sticky here:-

Those resistors clearly were not easy to shoehorn in there. And what about flush mount contacts? From a design perspective, they feel like after thoughts. If resistors had been thought through intentionally, they wouldn't come as PCB thru-hole components. Those are designed for PCB mounting via solder. They would come as little screw /crimp connectors like other cable mounted devices. So then I looked at contacts that have resistors incorporated. That means there would be a mix of contacts with only shunt resistors along a zone loop, with one end contact incorporating both a shunt and an end of line resistor. Then you have to match the resistor values /colours to the particular panel. They also cost a lot more than resistor less contacts. And are there active detectors with resistors included on sale even? Is there a green shock sensor? Heap big trouble!

As a professional chartered engineer I fully recognise the need for standards compliance and adopting best practice. As an alarm DIYer though... Thus this question So far, it seems that there aren't many tampers being tampered with.

 

[secureiam]

sorry but you can buy off the shelf door contacts and pir's with built in selectable resistors.

Okay I don't keep accurate records on the number of tampers I fix in a ready made spreadsheet, but here goes.

causes of some tampers.

1. wireless customer changed there own battery on a wireless pir, didn't correctly seal the unit closed.
2. decorator didn't put back the pir properly back tamper activated
3. Carpet fitter nicked the alarm cable.
4.rodents chewing on cables
5. new door fitted and cables not put back correctly.
6.diy alarm installer, didn't fix unit to wall properly back tamper activated.

so having tampers monitored is required as it tells you that's somethings wrong if they weren't monitored the system may not function properly, either false alarms or no alarm when required.

but you know best?

 

[Nintendofan]

"Lots of effort"?

I'm trying to do a good job in a quarter of the time for half the budget.

As your G4 pane does not support EOL then what's the extra expense to double the budget? also why are you trying to do the job in half the time, are you on a very tight time schedule and are you sure you could'nt allocate an extra hour to install the system correctly?

 

[PaulUszak]

but you know best?

No way, you guys have all the experience. I don't know nothin'. It's just that none of your six points includes the word "burglar" which was my original question.

 

[secureiam]

I don't see it as a lot of effort right panel and detectors and its easier rather than harder I would of said for tampers to be monitored than not.

A lot of effort I just don't agree, even if you are using a global tamper which I am not a fan of its a lot better than no tamper.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

OP, your point was how many people actually tamper with domestic burglar alarms, and whether it is worth wiring in the tamper loop, and from your notion it seems that you don't think it is worth while worrying about wiring in tamper circuits to save installation time.

But as wired systems use 6 core cable, it runs daisy chained to all the sensors and the detectors, so how much more long would it take to terminate two more wires for the tamper loop, so you might as well wire it up and meet full requirements.

 

[secureiam]

so how much more long would it take to terminate two more wires for the tamper loop.

replying to these questions has taken more time than the terminations would have???

 

[PaulUszak]

So. This thread is a week old. It has been viewed 486 times and replied to by eight individual people whom I gather are professional installers. Other than an example from 1966 (sic), no contemporary anecdotal evidence has been offered as to a burglar ever tampering with a domestic alarm.

I realise that it’s not the National Crime Survey or a YouGov poll, but it’s interesting nevertheless isn’t it? It creates some perspective and leads me to look at burglar alarm marketing in a different light...

 

[bernardgreen]

Have any of you ever heard of someone deliberately TAMPERing with a domestic customer's burglar alarm?

Other than an example from 1966 (sic), no contemporary anecdotal evidence has been offered as to a burglar ever tampering with a domestic alarm.

My 1966 incident was one that I was directly involved in determining why the alarm had not operated. For the several others my information has come via other people / organisation involved in determining why the alarm either (1) failed to detect intrusion or (2) became un-trusted due to repeated false alarms.

leads me to look at burglar alarm marketing in a different light...

Look at how marketing takes advantage of the general public being ignorant of the technicalities of alarm systems. Specifically look at the marketing of DIY systems using one way wireless communcations. One manufacturer of such systems advises the interference detection is turned off if there are too many false alarms.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

So. This thread is a week old. It has been viewed 486 times and replied to by eight individual people whom I gather are professional installers. Other than an example from 1966 (sic), no contemporary anecdotal evidence has been offered as to a burglar ever tampering with a domestic alarm.

I realise that it’s not the National Crime Survey or a YouGov poll, but it’s interesting nevertheless isn’t it? It creates some perspective and leads me to look at burglar alarm marketing in a different light...

In one way you are quite right, but as a designer of a system, he has to take into consideration all aspects of a security system in designing up a system that is not only reliable but also fool proof, I cannot tell you here for security reason, but a very similar product in nature, whose sole purpose is to reduce or prevent theft, and shrinkage in department stores of merchandise, where people (customers) have actually gone to the length of tampering with the security device, that required drilling holes. I am afraid I cannot give you any further clues as to what this security device is, but it is nevertheless closest to being as good as domestic in nature, because it is actually not an installed device and is given to customers.

 

[secureiam]

well I raised 6 different types that are regular occurrences of a tamper being activated stopping the system from working properly.

if the system isn't working properly, it gives the advantage to the burglar given it takes next to no time to add the tampers, I think you are completely missing the point. No real significant extra effort to have them and provide a better system, I would say its a no brainer.

end of the day you installing the system and its your choice, tampers are probably a first line of defence telling you there is something wrong that needs looking at.

bells have tampers, keypads have tampers, detectors have tampers, panels have tampers and so on.

They introduced seatbelts in cars to stop people getting hurt be been hurled forward in a crash, tampers were introduced to alarm systems to stop them from being tampered with, you don't wear your sealtbelt you may be okay 99% of the time but when you hit the steering wheel or window screen and get seriously injured as a result you might of wished you were wearing a seatbelt.

now I can tell you tampers not used can cause the alarm system not to work properly, because the devices are installed incorrectly, I can also tell you when you hit something at 50 mph and write a vehicle off the air bag protects you and so does the seatbelt and you seriously help protect you very very serious injury. May not be a common event, but it takes how much longer to use your seatbealt, it takes how much longer to add the tampers to the alarm panel?

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Alarm bells and telephone auto-dialing are two of the things that any thief would try and knock out first, so these should be monitored via suitable method as a matter of course, as these are accessible from an outside of a building. Internal contacts and sensors are not thought to be subject to tamper easily as external lines can be cut, however as has been said earlier for the purpose of meeting insurance requirement a security system should be sophisticated enough to register and log all tampers as well as alarm calls.

As technology advances, we now have sensors and contacts that are monitored by an EOL device so as to give any indication of bypassing a sensor, or devices that communicate their presence and send their status each second to a control panel for absolute security.

 

[secureiam]

hell its your choice, don't know why we are bothering trying to convice you as you CLEARLY KNOW BEST, but time difference is minimal the benefits are considerable.

really is a no brainer.

 

[PaulUszak]

really is a no brainer

Absolutely, and thanks for your inputs. They're very useful.

I know that it's sometimes difficult to keep a thread on topic, but the question was "Have any of you ever heard of someone deliberately TAMPERing with a domestic customer's burglar alarm?" I think that specific question has been answered.