Loft Conversion - Advice

[conny]

I am in the middle of having my loft converted to two rooms. We knew from the outset that it is a professional job and not a DIY project. We contacted the carpenters who were involved in the original build, as they set the loft area out for potential conversion at a later date. The joists are sized correctly, trimmer joists were inserted for a staircase, plumbing pipework and electrical cables for the current installation were run in appropriate places so they wouldn't need to be disturbed etc. If we hadn't had this done at the time it would have added at least another £10k to the current price and taken a lot longer.
If he had told me he was employing subbies he would not have got the job. The electrician and plumber he is using are part of his company, (they too worked on the original build), so he knows their standards are high.
Two others who tended for the work were ridiculous. One guy came in, very brash and arrogant attitude, who didn't 'need' to go in the loft as he knew how they were constructed and said his baseline price was £60k and he would advise as the job progressed if there were going to be financial changes. Not that it matters, but he was from Essex and lost the chance as soon as he opened his mouth. The third guy poked his head through the loft opening, looked around, came down the ladder and promptly said, "I can get a few mates in for the bits and pieces and it will be £10-15k for the complete works". Way, way too low and we knew he couldn't do a proper job for that price.
Listen to the advice you have been given and be honest with your client. If the job is a botch, it will be you they come on to for recompense or to take to court, not the sub-contractors. You are employing them, not the client.

 

[DM7]

.....and based on zero actual experience, otherwise you would not be in here, asking. It all sounds like a potential for disaster, for both you, and more importantly - your client/customer.

I appreciate your input and opinion.

-Honestly, it's good to get different perspectives.


Thanks.

 

[AkiraDIY]

Sorry, but when I worked for building company the owner running it and managing the building is clueless about how to even paint a wall properly, let alone build a house (yet they are managing a team of tradesmen who are building the houses)

Same when I worked for an estate agency doing repairs. The management knows nothing about how to do the repairs, and they rely on people like me and other tradesmen to do the work.

They then add on 20%, or more, and charge the client.

This is something I realised.

Why am I grafting making companies £££ for my hard work?

And given that I know more than them, I'm more skilled and in a better position than them to understand and manage a team of tradesmen, and I have 8+ years of clients, many of.them repeat customers who love my work, asking me to more work than I can handle and do, and I know other professional tradesmen who have agreed to team up with me under my company name, then why not??

So what are you saying? You worked for clueless management who had no idea if the job was done properly or by a cowboy and decided to get in on that action?

By your own admission (assuming you're copying a similar business model), your quote has no value for money and is approximately 20% overpriced for what? Slightly less clueless management services while subcontractors do the work? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Maybe you've been competitively priced in the past (unlikely after you start subcontracting) and have repeat clients but it doesn't sound like your clients have all the facts. Have you told them you don't know how to do a loft conversion, it's not your area of expertise, it's bigger than anything you've done before(?), and will rely on subcontractors to do the work? If they did, I imagine they'd have sought a loft conversion specialist instead.

8+ years experience isn't much in the grand scheme of things, it's only a bit longer than some apprenticeships. My takeaway from this thread, one of your "avenues for advice", is that you should tell your client(s) a loft conversion is not a job you can comfortably do and point them in the direction of someone who can. Considering you claim to have repeat customers who are asking you to do more than you can do (I assume time wise, not skill wise), taking on those jobs would be better.

Hopefully you are as skilled as you believe and it's not just hubris and dollar signs in your eyes that's doing the talking since you're not heeding the advice being given.

 

[DM7]

I am in the middle of having my loft converted to two rooms. We knew from the outset that it is a professional job and not a DIY project. We contacted the carpenters who were involved in the original build, as they set the loft area out for potential conversion at a later date. The joists are sized correctly, trimmer joists were inserted for a staircase, plumbing pipework and electrical cables for the current installation were run in appropriate places so they wouldn't need to be disturbed etc. If we hadn't had this done at the time it would have added at least another £10k to the current price and taken a lot longer.
If he had told me he was employing subbies he would not have got the job. The electrician and plumber he is using are part of his company, (they too worked on the original build), so he knows their standards are high.
Two others who tended for the work were ridiculous. One guy came in, very brash and arrogant attitude, who didn't 'need' to go in the loft as he knew how they were constructed and said his baseline price was £60k and he would advise as the job progressed if there were going to be financial changes. Not that it matters, but he was from Essex and lost the chance as soon as he opened his mouth. The third guy poked his head through the loft opening, looked around, came down the ladder and promptly said, "I can get a few mates in for the bits and pieces and it will be £10-15k for the complete works". Way, way too low and we knew he couldn't do a proper job for that price.
Listen to the advice you have been given and be honest with your client. If the job is a botch, it will be you they come on to for recompense or to take to court, not the sub-contractors. You are employing them, not the client.

I understand what you are saying. I have been clear with the client. I have told them I have been researching and asking friends, pro carpenters (who I know personally), and I have also advised the customer that a loft for storage is a completely different job than a loft being part completed for a future living space.

I told them that there are regulations and loads of factors to consider.

I advised them against just putting boards down (which is what they originally wanted to do) as this will most likely need to be lifted up and redone in the future.

I have friends who have been working in the trade for years. I know certified electricians, Gas Safe plumbers, and brickie's, with years and years of experience.

It has only been around two months that I started expanding into more advanced works, so I am at the beginning stages. Yet, my friends, who I have a deal with, who have years of experience, and whom I know to be very trustworthy, have agreed to team up with me. One of whom can do complete extensions, roofs and other building work with his established team, and will help me out with whatever I need.

I only came onto this forum, as part of my research, and I haven't even yet spoken to all my contacts in the trade about loft conversions. I am just doing research, & learning at this stage. This forum is a good source of information (not a sole source) where I am guessing time-served, and retired builders who like to help out and socialize online will give some very good information.

I completely get what some are saying on this thread, and honestly, this is helpful advice, but at the same time, I think I am perhaps being slightly misunderstood.

 

[DM7]

So what are you saying? You worked for clueless management who had no idea if the job was done properly or by a cowboy and decided to get in on that action?

By your own admission (assuming you're copying a similar business model), your quote has no value for money and is approximately 20% overpriced for what? Slightly less clueless management services while subcontractors do the work? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Maybe you've been competitively priced in the past (unlikely after you start subcontracting) and have repeat clients but it doesn't sound like your clients have all the facts. Have you told them you don't know how to do a loft conversion, it's not your area of expertise, it's bigger than anything you've done before(?), and will rely on subcontractors to do the work? If they did, I imagine they'd have sought a loft conversion specialist instead.

8+ years experience isn't much in the grand scheme of things, it's only a bit longer than some apprenticeships. My takeaway from this thread, one of your "avenues for advice", is that you should tell your client(s) a loft conversion is not a job you can comfortably do and point them in the direction of someone who can. Considering you claim to have repeat customers who are asking you to do more than you can do (I assume time wise, not skill wise), taking on those jobs would be better.

Hopefully you are as skilled as you believe and it's not just hubris and dollar signs in your eyes that's doing the talking since you're not heeding the advice being given.

What I am saying is that the companies I worked for, one being a building company that has been building for probably 30+ years, another that was making modular homes, and another that was an estate agency, - I saw that the managers and owners are not qualified to the level of knowing the ins-and-outs of every trade. Not many people are certified carpenters, whilst being certified plumbers, whilst being a certified electrician, - they dont know ALL of these skills. They don't know the fine details. They will have a general idea of what needs to be done, and they will then get the certified people to do the work.

Like in many other different types of companies around the world. The CEO isn't a master in every department. They have workers who specialize in areas who do the work.

No one is forcing a client to accept my quote, nor do they have to sign the contract that will say I use sub contractors.

It's their choice.

 

[johnny2007]

Yet, my friends, who I have a deal with, who have years of experience, and whom I know to be very trustworthy, have agreed to team up with me. One of whom can do complete extensions, roofs and other building work with his established team, and will help me out with whatever I need.

Why don't you ask this friend to price this job then?
He could go there, see what's what, speak to you about the price and either
1. Give you a drink for referral
Or
2. Tell you how much he needs and you send the quote to the customer taking your cut.

Nothing wrong acting as middleman; I've done it all my life and still do.
But you take responsibility if anything goes wrong.

 

[DM7]

Why don't you ask this friend to price this job then?
He could go there, see what's what, speak to you about the price and either
1. Give you a drink for referral
Or
2. Tell you how much he needs and you send the quote to the customer taking your cut.

Nothing wrong acting as middleman; I've done it all my life and still do.
But you take responsibility if anything goes wrong.

Yeah, he said to me that whenever I get a job he can give the quote with me. He (and his team) can do some/all of the work, as per my request. He was more than happy for me to retain the customer and for him too be working for me on these jobs. In the past I have worked for him too.

He is really busy though, so I haven't yet consulted him about this loft job.

If the customer wants to proceed with this loft job I explained to the customer that further investigation into the proposed work would be done, and that if it is found that the joist or other modifications are needed to the existing set-up of the loft, then the quotation would need to be adjusted to reflect the increased cost of materials and labour (this would all be agreed with the customer before any work is done, and they would be given a complete quotation based on what they want to achieve).

 

[AkiraDIY]

What I am saying is that the companies I worked for, one being a building company that has been building for probably 30+ years, another that was making modular homes, and another that was an estate agency, - I saw that the managers and owners are not qualified to the level of knowing the ins-and-outs of every trade. Not many people are certified carpenters, whilst being certified plumbers, whilst being a certified electrician, - they dont know ALL of these skills. They don't know the fine details. They will have a general idea of what needs to be done, and they will then get the certified people to do the work.

Like in many other different types of companies around the world. The CEO isn't a master in every department. They have workers who specialize in areas who do the work.

No one is forcing a client to accept my quote, nor do they have to sign the contract that will say I use sub contractors.

It's their choice.

It might be their choice, but if you’re not giving them all the information, it’s not an INFORMED choice, is it? You’re misrepresenting your services, skills, and experience to try and get the contract. If I saw an apparent professional tradesman on a home DIY forum asking how to do a job they’re tendering for, I’d run a mile. If your client saw this thread, they’d run a mile.

A habitable loft conversion is a big enough job that it merits a prime contractor or project manager that does know the ins and outs of ALL the skills you mentioned, the ins and outs of the regulations, AND most importantly, be experienced in loft conversions. Without that, you’re just another varying degree of clueless manager unable to supervise subcontractors effectively.

A CEO needs to be a master of running the company, which involves appointing masters of departments and effectively supervising them. Stuff goes wrong, the appointed masters are responsible, not the CEO (unless it’s a huge mistake the CEO should have caught). You as a new company, have no masters to appoint, lack the experience to effectively supervise, and the responsibility lies on you and only you. It's certainly not a position I'd want to put myself in.

A large company trading for 30+ years likely has a number of project managers and experienced experts picking up the slack. A company a number of months old does not have such luxury. If they didn’t have anyone covering the slack, it’s hardly a good role model to base your company on, unless it’s purely about the $$$ and quality is not your primary concern.

You clearly just want the $$$ and are willing to hide the fact you'd purely be an inexperienced middleman just to get the job. It looks like you’ve already made your decision to go ahead and you just want "yes people" to justify your decision. So further discussion is pointless, I wish good luck on the job. Mainly for the benefit of the client.

 

[DM7]

It might be their choice, but if you’re not giving them all the information, it’s not an INFORMED choice, is it? You’re misrepresenting your services, skills, and experience to try and get the contract. If I saw an apparent professional tradesman on a home DIY forum asking how to do a job they’re tendering for, I’d run a mile. If your client saw this thread, they’d run a mile.

A habitable loft conversion is a big enough job that it merits a prime contractor or project manager that does know the ins and outs of ALL the skills you mentioned, the ins and outs of the regulations, AND most importantly, be experienced in loft conversions. Without that, you’re just another varying degree of clueless manager unable to supervise subcontractors effectively.

A CEO needs to be a master of running the company, which involves appointing masters of departments and effectively supervising them. Stuff goes wrong, the appointed masters are responsible, not the CEO (unless it’s a huge mistake the CEO should have caught). You as a new company, have no masters to appoint, lack the experience to effectively supervise, and the responsibility lies on you and only you. It's certainly not a position I'd want to put myself in.

A large company trading for 30+ years likely has a number of project managers and experienced experts picking up the slack. A company a number of months old does not have such luxury. If they didn’t have anyone covering the slack, it’s hardly a good role model to base your company on, unless it’s purely about the $$$ and quality is not your primary concern.

You clearly just want the $$$ and are willing to hide the fact you'd purely be an inexperienced middleman just to get the job. It looks like you’ve already made your decision to go ahead and you just want "yes people" to justify your decision. So further discussion is pointless, I wish good luck on the job. Mainly for the benefit of the client.

I don't think you have read/understood my posts correctly.

The client knows me, I've previously done work for them (I installed a drop-down loft ladder hatch for them around a yr ago), I've told them I'm not sure that the loft can just be boarded/without modification (like they asked me to), they know I am consulting other traders to seek advice.....

Can't get much clearer than that.

And yh, had this thread convo been more constructive with actual advice on how to do this loft conversion, without all the negative misconceptions and false presumptions, then yeah I would be more than happy to show this thread to the client for them to benefit from additional info.

So if people do have advice on loft conversions other than "get a professional" then feel free to input. And then perhaps I will share this thread with the client too.

Thanks

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The client knows me, I've previously done work for them (I installed a drop-down loft ladder hatch for them around a yr ago

Which is about as basic a DIY as anyone can do.

I've told them I'm not sure that the loft can just be boarded/without modification (like they asked me to), they know I am consulting other traders to seek advice.....

Again, that is very basic DIY which many people do without needing to consult anyone at all, so why would someone with your claimed skills have need to consult anyone else at all?

 

[DM7]

Which is about as basic a DIY as anyone can do.



Again, that is very basic DIY which many people do without needing to consult anyone at all, so why would someone with your claimed skills have need to consult anyone else at all?

I really don't think it's that complicated to board a loft floor, do some stud work, put in some insulation, and plasterboard, run some plumbing pipes, and get one of my electrician friends to the electrics, fit a window. I have done these types of jobs before, and am fully confident that I can do that part (it's basic), inc. fit an on-suit shower/toilet room, etc.

This is all very very easy for me to do. I know this part and I am 100% confident in it.

The part that I am not confident in doing is assessing whether or not structural work is needed on the joist/roof. That important part is what I am seeking advice on. And once that bit is clarified I would be confident I could do it myself if given correct instruction from someone who's done it before. Or I would just subcontract that part of the work that I am not confident in to a friend/carpenter/builder who I know can do it.

It should be noted that even some of the (I presume traders) who have posted in this thread agree that this work can potentially be carried out by a competent DIYer (and I am not a DIYer, I am skilled in different types of work, so in a better position than a DIYer).

It has also been mentioned in this thread that I am not solely relying on the DIY NOT forum, I just thought it would be a helpful resource, and that the client knows I am consulting others, so clearly they know I am not 100% certain about this job they asked me to do.

No more conversation is needed about this now. We go around in circles, wasting our time.

The advice I asked for at the beginning of this thread was about the rafters, joists, and supports in the current loft setup - the important bit that I don't know how to do and am not confident in assessing/doing myself, at this stage.

 

[AkiraDIY]

I don't think you have read/understood my posts correctly.

The client knows me, I've previously done work for them (I installed a drop-down loft ladder hatch for them around a yr ago), I've told them I'm not sure that the loft can just be boarded/without modification (like they asked me to), they know I am consulting other traders to seek advice.....

Can't get much clearer than that.

And yh, had this thread convo been more constructive with actual advice on how to do this loft conversion, without all the negative misconceptions and false presumptions, then yeah I would be more than happy to show this thread to the client for them to benefit from additional info.

So if people do have advice on loft conversions other than "get a professional" then feel free to input. And then perhaps I will share this thread with the client too.

Thanks

First off, no professional is going to give you instruction on how to do a complex job without actually seeing the job. Second, they're not going to tell you how to do their job so you can charge some potentially unknowing customer for what will inevitably be a bodged and likely unsafe job at some point. Thirdly, people are saying get a professional because you're on a home DIY forum asking how to do a job intended for a professional that a customer will pay for. That's not the actions of a professional capable of doing the work or actions of someone with sufficient knowledge to manage subcontractors.

Like I said, you're not going to get "yes people" saying it's a good idea and go ahead. They're all saying it's a massive job that your experience and knowledge is not suited for, even if it's just to manage subcontractors. Sometimes you need to walk before you can run however, honest truth may be too "negative" for you.

 

[DM7]

First off, no professional is going to give you instruction on how to do a complex job without actually seeing the job. Second, they're not going to tell you how to do their job so you can charge some potentially unknowing customer for what will inevitably be a bodged and likely unsafe job at some point. Thirdly, people are saying get a professional because you're on a home DIY forum asking how to do a job intended for a professional that a customer will pay for. That's not the actions of a professional capable of doing the work or actions of someone with sufficient knowledge to manage subcontractors.

Like I said, you're not going to get "yes people" saying it's a good idea and go ahead. They're all saying it's a massive job that your experience and knowledge is not suited for, even if it's just to manage subcontractors. Sometimes you need to walk before you can run however, honest truth may be too "negative" for you.

Actually, someone in this thread said:

"I've done a few of these jobs and always advised to lay new floor joists so they will be already there when loft is converted. It's not the easiest job without touching the roof, but very doable even by a competent diyer. The most essential thing is to get a structural engineer involved so to plan the loft conversion and do the floor accordingly. In other words, you'd be doing a bit of the work in preparation for the conversion.
Otherwise, if it's only for storage, get some chipboard flooring 22mm and board the existing joists.
In this case, at conversion stage, the boards will need to be lifted and could be reused."

So there is a difference of opinion in this matter.

And you have no idea of my skills and ability, you don't know me.... you are just making presumptions.

What would be the issue if I said to the client "A structural engineer should involved so as to plan the loft conversion and do the floor accordingly." I then went and got one involved and followed what he said?

What would be the issue if I got a friend who is a roofer to advise me every step of the way or to do the structural parts of the work for me?

I really think you are overcomplicating the matter.

It would be more constructive to say things like "its not possible to tell from the photos you gave in the beginning" or "The joist would need to be inspected by someone qualified in roofing to first to see how sound they are - so not possible to give advice without seeing it in person"

Stuff like that is beneficial info (if it is correct).

 

[AkiraDIY]

Are you presenting yourself to the client as a DIYer or a professional tradesman? It can be done by a competent DIYer is extremely debatable (storage yes, habitable then I'd say no) and you're certainly not paying a competent DIYer are you?

If you gotta ask for how to do it on a DIY forum, it's reasonable to assume you don't know how to do it, haven't got experience in loft conversions, and certainly not to a professional standard/level.

If the subcontractor who's the expert and the structural engineer who's the consultant had a disagreement, what input could you as the prime contractor and main point of contact to the client provide? Can you be sure that the subcontractor is going to do exactly as he is told? If the client has complex or detailed questions about the build, are you going to be like "hold on while I find out for you?" If your subcontractor insisted that replacing the joists with breadsticks is 100% the proper way to do it, what grounds do you have to argue with him? Can you look at the subcontractor's work and immediately know if it's proper or not?

OFC breadsticks is an exaggeration but you get the idea, you need experience and prior knowledge to manage people. Just because you can install a loft ladder doesn't mean you can supervise a loft conversion. You'd be essentially giving any subcontractor free reign to do what they want (i.e. save costs and maximise their profit on the job) while shouldering all the responsibility.

Learning to walk before you can run is valuable advice... but you do you. Best of luck, sounds like you and your client is gonna need it.

 

[DM7]

Are you presenting yourself to the client as a DIYer or a professional tradesman? It can be done by a competent DIYer is extremely debatable (storage yes, habitable then I'd say no) and you're certainly not paying a competent DIYer are you?

If you gotta ask for how to do it on a DIY forum, it's reasonable to assume you don't know how to do it, haven't got experience in loft conversions, and certainly not to a professional standard/level.

If the subcontractor who's the expert and the structural engineer who's the consultant had a disagreement, what input could you as the prime contractor and main point of contact to the client provide? Can you be sure that the subcontractor is going to do exactly as he is told? If the client has complex or detailed questions about the build, are you going to be like "hold on while I find out for you?" If your subcontractor insisted that replacing the joists with breadsticks is 100% the proper way to do it, what grounds do you have to argue with him? Can you look at the subcontractor's work and immediately know if it's proper or not?

OFC breadsticks is an exaggeration but you get the idea, you need experience and prior knowledge to manage people. Just because you can install a loft ladder doesn't mean you can supervise a loft conversion. You'd be essentially giving any subcontractor free reign to do what they want (i.e. save costs and maximise their profit on the job) while shouldering all the responsibility.

Learning to walk before you can run is valuable advice... but you do you. Best of luck, sounds like you and your client is gonna need it.

I dont actually have to ask about.this.on this forum.

I can simply call my friends who know more about these things than me, and get them to come see the loft and give the quote.

So far I have only briefly spoke to one of them and asked for advice on converting a loft into storage. He was in the middle of attending to his baby, so we said we will discuss it in more detail later. Then I thought to make a thread on here.

If the client wants to proceed I will be taking a friend/builder to view it again, (as mentioned to the client, and on this thread) to assess loft to see if structural work is needed.

End of.


Unless someone wants to talk about loft conversions no more need for is to waste time on this thread about this.