Moving to france

[ban-all-sheds]

Sorry - I wasn't trying to be confrontational, except insofar as disagreeing with someone, and expressing that disagreement is bound to be "confrontational" to some extent.

I know you didn't suggest someone moving here from France should do that, but you did advocate that someone moving to France should wire their property there according to our regulations, and I wondered how you would view things from the reverse perspective. Seriously - what would your opinion be of an American who advised someoe moving here to fit sockets in his bathroom, arguing that "English regulations do not permit it, but that makes no sense - ours do, so do what ours say"?

France is a civilised, sovereign nation, and does have laws and regulations. And this is what you think of them:

"I must say that if you wire the house to French regulations, then you may as well sell your soul to the devil."

"French and electrical regulations do not generally meet anywhere near common sense."

(And ours do??)

Now - I admit I don't know what force of law French electrical regulations have, and I accept that you may well do.

But do our sockets and plugs comply to French standards for such items? And even if they do comply, are they actually certified, and do they carry any conformity markings (e.g. the French equivalent of a kitemark, if there is such a thing, and if it's required)?

Do French wiring regulations recognise the validity of a ring-final circuit, or do they say "2.5mm, 30A, NO"?

I just maintain that it is generally not a good idea to advise people in another country to do things which may contravene their local rules on the grounds that our regulations are superior, and therefore must be OK to use there.

 

[AdamW]

Seriously - what would your opinion be of an American who advised someoe moving here to fit sockets in his bathroom, arguing that "English regulations do not permit it, but that makes no sense - ours do, so do what ours say"?

I would say "bad American, no!". I thought they could only fit special outlets in their bathrooms, ones that wouldn't be available in a UK format. And seeing as all of their american-plugged equipment is 110V they wouldn't be able to meet their regulations as US sockets carrying 230V is surely wrong and might even trip the "special outlet"...

Never thought I would see a theoretical debate on the translation of regs from one country to another!

 

[Big_Spark]

Ban, I take the points you make, and they are certainly most valid points at that.

In France, they do have electrical regulations, but they are hardly enforced. When you rewire/wire a property, it must be inspected by a local engineer before power can be restored/supplied..well that is how it should happen.

The way the French wore circuits is certainly "different" from the UK, and many parts of Europe for that matter, I would not say they are dangerous in the general scheme of things, but they are certainly not up to UK standards of 30 years ago, let alone todays.

Our sockets and Light switches EXCEED all other European standards for Electrical accessories, this is why UK accessories have BS EN numbers not simply EN numbers. EN standards are based mostly on the German standards, but the BSi would not accept downgrading of our standards to level the playing field, that was when the EU standards authority created the BS EN range of standards.

You need to remember that in France, sockets can be powered by lighting circuits, sockets can appear in bathrooms and generally Earth is something you find in your back yard!

The figures for fatal accidents in both countries also tell the story, The UK has the LOWEST death rate by electrocution and electrical fires in the WORLD, France has the Highest, with the exception of Portugal, in the EU and one of the worst rates in the Industrialised world. Their system KILLS over 1500 people every year by electrocution, and estimates for electrical fire related deaths exceed 500 annually.

In the UK the death rate is around 10 killed directly, 60% of these will kids climbing on Pylons and into sub-stations and the death rate by fire is about 20 per year, and these fires usually start due to DIY work or TV's that have water dripped onto them.

I think these figures speak volumes, it is also why most of the Industry resist all this European conformity rubbish.

 

[munch]

french regs are very different to Uk ones

as their power connectors are often non-polarised and therefore sockets not marked with two different terminals, it is essential that ring mains are not used. as i understand it the french regs ban ring mains

the french power system has little distinction between power and light circuits (if any) and their system must be understood fully before one can safely make any changes to a french system

the large rocker plates commonly found (mainly) on mainland europe switches seem to have significant gaps between tge rocker plate and the faceplate when the rocker plate is pressed firmly.

the uk system is fine until we have any visitors - Europe compatible socket to Uk plug adaptors are not as commonly available as euro plug to uk socket ones which most brits probably have lying in a drawer for 11 months of the year. I just take the single adaptor and a uk 4 way with me when travelling abroad.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

french regs are very different to Uk ones

as their power connectors are often non-polarised and therefore sockets not marked with two different terminals, it is essential that ring mains are not used. as i understand it the french regs ban ring mains..

Please explain how non-polarised plugs, or sockets which don't mark L & N mean that it is essential not to have a ring? I'm not for one minute disagreeing with you about the French regs - (that's FWL's job ), but I would love to know your reasoning for the non-polarised stuff.....

PS - a tip re the 4-way. Rewire it with an IEC-320 plug, and either take a UK plug to IEC-320 socket cable and your adapter, or a local-country-plug to IEC-320 socket cable with you. Or travel light without either, on the grounds that you'll be able to use the kettle lead in your hotel room, any spare IT eqiupment lead lying around in offices etc.

 

[masona]

it is essential that ring mains are not used. as i understand it the french regs ban ring mains

My electrician,friend of mine has told me that the UK will be doing away with ring mains and copying the french.Have any of you heard of this?

 

[munch]

this

this

are similar topics that I researched this on for myself, that I would probably end up just repeating the points from

I cant see ring mains disappearing because of their usefulness in carrying larger amounts of power, however th UK is obviously getting closer to some standards used in the rest of europe, such as Live being Brown, Black, Grey

 

[Big_Spark]

Munch, I have heard a few people try to state the French system is better, but as they kill more than 100 times the number of people every year compared to the UK, I do not consider the European system safer.

Further, this comment about the Earth being the same size, if you use the adiabatic equation, the ring main in your house will only need a n Earth about 0.75mm2 to do the job!!

Twice this size in T&E is more than adequate.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

this

this

are similar topics that I researched this on for myself, that I would probably end up just repeating the points from..

Munch - I've followed both of those links - I still can't find anything which supports your argument that a ring circuit cannot possibly be used when there are non-polarised plugs and sockets about...

 

[AdamW]

I haven't read the links, but logic would dictate that without polarised sockets, they probably don't bother colour-coding the conductors in the cable. Because of that, if you tried to wire a ring main you have a 50% chance of connecting one of the cables in the wrong phase/neutral orientation back at the CU.

Now that wouldn't be too much fun, especially when earth in a french house is usually the stuff that came in on your gardening boots.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Munch, I have heard a few people try to state the French system is better, but as they kill more than 100 times the number of people every year compared to the UK, I do not consider the European system safer..

Don't know about France specifically, but one of the papers cited in the Part P proposals as a justification was

Bromley,K & Riley,J. Electrical accidents and regulations in the UK and other countries. BRE Report No. 76348 prepared for DETR, August 1999.

which apparently claims that the incidence of electrical casualties (both fatal and non-fatal) at work and in the home per million population appears much higher in the UK than in a number of other European countries. Cant find it on the DTI or BRE websites though.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I haven't read the links, but logic would dictate that without polarised sockets, they probably don't bother colour-coding the conductors in the cable. ..

They do use colours. Earth is green & yellow, Neutral is blue, and Live can be any colour other than those. Apparently purple and pink are common.

 

[AdamW]

which apparently claims that the incidence of electrical casualties (both fatal and non-fatal) at work and in the home per million population appears much higher in the UK than in a number of other European countries. Cant find it on the DTI or BRE websites though.

Not making a jibe at you ban, but the bloke who wrote that paper must have shares in defibrilator manufacturers.

I work in a multinational company and have spent long periods of time working in both Paris and Rome. The French offices seemed to be OK as electrical safety went (although this was a building 2 years old at most) but in an Italian office I was shocked to see the state of wiring. 5-way adaptors plugged into and out of each other, BUZZING AWAY. Tried to find a plug for my laptop, could I? Nope, because some bright spark decided that they should wire the entire office with Swiss-style outlets so that people couldn't plug their own equipment in.

Perhaps in the UK we use more electrical stuff (less likely to be sitting in a bar drinking wine and chatting with friends, more likely to be at home watching telly and posting on diynot).

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Interestingly (??), in here , Paul Cook wrote (my emphasis):

"The basic requirement is that the electrical installations should meet the fundamental principles of Chapter 13 of BS 7671 : 2001 (or other EEC countries wiring rules)."

 

[AdamW]

Typical.