New busbar for split-load consumer unit converted to all RCBO

[EFLImpudence]

That's historically true, but exactly the same issues ('anomalies') would have arisen if what had been introduced back in the 40s/50s/whenever had been 30A radials, rather than rings - i.e. it is "30A" which is the issue, not "ring"

Yes, but it wasn't. That would have defeated the object of the exercise.

Yes, everyone can do the sums, but I doubt that, in any country it is considered good/acceptable practive to design on the basis of a circuit being technically 'overloaded', is it?

Are you saying that is what was done but should not have been?

I'm not sure that people in any country are particularly 'bright' in this respect - when there are multiple sockets circuits in one room, I doubt that many people, in any country, are aware of 'which sockets are on which circuit' and/or the need to spread loads across those circuits.

So, that point you made does not apply.

Sure, but that's because of your 16A circuits, not because they are radials.

Yes, I know; that was my point.

I can't disagree with that - although, I suppose, the same could have been said when ring finals were introduced (and subsequently became pretty ubiquitous).

I said that it wasn't really worth discussing.

I still don't think the UK plug is anything but a bodge.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes, but it wasn't. That would have defeated the object of the exercise.

It probably would. However, my response followed from your initial comment. When you said that plug fuses were only required because of the 'anomalies' resulting from the 'redundant design' of UK circuits, I thought you were talking about (as you often do!) the introduction of ring final circuits. However, as I've pointed out, the issues/'anomalies' which resulted in the ned for plug fuses resulted in the introduction of 30A circuits, regardless of the arrangement of those circuits.

Just to be clear, are you saying that you are (almost opposite to my thoughts) 'against' socket circuits >16A ?

Are you saying that is what was done but should not have been?

I'm saying that is 'wrong' to deliberately design a circuit on the basis that an 'overload' of up to x1.45 'would not do any harm'. You asked whether one ring final (which I took to mean 'one 32A circuit') would be sufficient' for a kitchen, and I replied that it probably would be if one was prepared to allow that degree of overload, the implication that I'm not so sure that it would necessary be 'sufficient' if (as he/she should) the designer wanted to try to avoid such 'overload' situations.

So, that point you made does not apply.

Why not? My point is that when there are multiple 'multiple sockets' sockets circuits in one room, one cannot rely on users spreading the load across those circuits. Hence, there could be 3 x 20A radials, but with all loads plugged into one of them.

I still don't think the UK plug is anything but a bodge.

I'm not sure that 'bodge' is the right word. It essentially became a necessity when 30A circuits were introduced - so, if anything, it's 30A circuits that are 'a bodge', not the consequent need for fused plugs.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

It probably would. However, my response followed from your initial comment. When you said that plug fuses were only required because of the 'anomalies' resulting from the 'redundant design' of UK circuits,

The redundant design of the (special dispensation) ring final circuit.

I thought you were talking about (as you often do!) the introduction of ring final circuits. However, as I've pointed out, the issues/'anomalies' which resulted in the ned for plug fuses resulted in the introduction of 30A circuits, regardless of the arrangement of those circuits.

I was, but there likely would not be 30A socket circuits - and with it the necessity to have plugs with fuses - without the invention of the (special dispensation) ring final circuit merely by adding to an existing 15A radial circuit.

Just to be clear, are you saying that you are (almost opposite to my thoughts) 'against' socket circuits >16A ?

I am not against them as such; I just don't think the British ring final is necessary any longer.
If it is then the OPD could be raised to 40A with MCBs (making it even better).

As you often say the 27A of 2.5mm² cable is so close to 32A, it makes the ring final even more of an oddity.

I'm saying that is 'wrong' to deliberately design a circuit on the basis that an 'overload' of up to x1.45 'would not do any harm'. You asked whether one ring final (which I took to mean 'one 32A circuit') would be sufficient' for a kitchen, and I replied that it probably would be if one was prepared to allow that degree of overload, the implication that I'm not so sure that it would necessary be 'sufficient' if (as he/she should) the designer wanted to try to avoid such 'overload' situations.

So you may as well have several 16A radial circuits.

Why not? My point is that when there are multiple 'multiple sockets' sockets circuits in one room, one cannot rely on users spreading the load across those circuits. Hence, there could be 3 x 20A radials, but with all loads plugged into one of them.

Therefore there was no point mentioning the brightness of the people.

I'm not sure that 'bodge' is the right word. It essentially became a necessity when 30A circuits were introduced - so, if anything, it's 30A circuits that are 'a bodge', not the consequent need for fused plugs.

EXACTLY.

I shall let you have the last word.

 

[SUNRAY]

I wasn't intending to make any more replies in this thread, however:

But I haven't learned much from you, except for that it is your opinion that I should hire someone else to do this. You think I'm not only incompetent, but apparently I also do "stupid" things.

What you have learnt from me is I believe YOU should not be doing this work

I criticize the culture that discourages DIY work because it has a lot of downsides, not just in terms of DIY electrical work. My neighbour is a builder and he's very positive about all the DIY work that we're putting into the house. He complained that young people don't have any practical skills anymore. With plumbing, roofing, electrical work etc. all being discouraged, how is that supposed to change?

I'm not discouraging DIY work in the slightest, you only have to look at some of the advice I've given and persisted with more help as the thread goes on, for example search for posts by jackstraw

Nonsense. The reason I'm using this device is because it was a gift from someone who didn't use it anymore. You shouldn't have so much confidence in your speculations about the situation as they are just speculations.

Well if you don't have the original MI for the product, may I suggest you find a copy. (this comes under competency)

He's your friend, so it's his job to agree with you. But have a look at the Dutch "Tweakers meter cabinet" forum with Google translate if you're interested. You'll see that its HUGE for such a small country and that it's all DIY related discussions and advice related to consumer units. There are definitely also regulations there, but people are more relaxed and help each other follow them.

Again this comes under competency, yes he has been a colleague (realistically maybe 20 years ago) and I'm happy to have called him a friend at the time and just as happy to continue to do so.
It is not his job to agree with me, just as it is not the job of others on here to agree with me.
His job is to be a competent electrician at home and when he worked in UK, all I did was ask him for advice and in the course of doing so pointed him to this thread, which he has been doing since. It was he who sent me a message your reply.

No you didn't, you make a hypothetical offer. You said that you would have offered but didn't because you didn't believe I'm competent.

For clarity I quote in full that part of my post

I wouldn't know where I did that.

You made various statements about wiring practices in another country and an electrician from that country tells me how you opinion of those practices are at odds with that countries documentation.

The only consequence of this is that I still do the work myself, but without the advice of a qualified person like yourself. Everyone loses with this attitude.

Since working with electricity can be dangerous without certain skills or knowledge, I would argue that the following attitude/policy is more productive:

If you at least tried to read what we have actually offered to you, you would see that:

1. Educate people on how the electrical system in their home works, so they are better able to recognise problems and determine when to hire a professional and what they can fix themselves.

Is exactly what we did.


If you at least tried to read what we have actually offered to you, you would see that:

2. Provide quality advice and information to the sub-section of the population who will DIY their wiring regardless of what's recommended (for whatever reason, money, stubbornness, ideals, pride). Let's call this the school of electrical enlightenment due to the emphasis on education, awareness, and empowering individuals to make informed decisions about electrical work while promoting safety.

Is exactly what we did.

This strikes a better balance than what I'll call the school of electrical abstinence.

I don't understand this comment, how have we suggested doing without electricity?

I'm still not sure what it is you are doing/trying to do/criticising/agreeing with etc but now I'm out of this.

If you really really want to know what a professional from that other country thinks of you and your work ethic I'll happily post quotes from his emails here for you, however I'll have to disguise the critical words he has used or face a rebuke or ban from the mods.

 

[JohnW2]

The redundant design of the (special dispensation) ring final circuit. ... I was, but there likely would not be 30A socket circuits ...

I'm not so sure about that. Pre-WWII, 15A circuits, often with just one or two (single) sockets were probably adequate for many people, because of the paucity (and, generally, fairly low power). However, as the world moved on, there was inevitably going to be a need for a move either to multiple 15A circuits (probably very wasteful of cable/copper) or, more likely, circuits with a greater capacity than 15A.

I am not against them as such; I just don't think the British ring final is necessary any longer. If it is then the OPD could be raised to 40A with MCBs (making it even better). As you often say the 27A of 2.5mm² cable is so close to 32A, it makes the ring final even more of an oddity.

As I keep saying, although I know you like to have these discussions about the 'oddity'/whatever of ring finals, that's not what I've been talking about - I've been talking about 'low current capacity' circuits, no matter what their configuration.

So you may as well have several 16A radial circuits.

You know my views about multiple low-current 'multiple sockets' circuits, particularly in places like kitchens and utility rooms.

Therefore there was no point mentioning the brightness of the people.

So why did you?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

A simple little update, this was a view earlier from the accommodation I've enjoyed for a few days. Incase the writing is not legible the roof says Amsterdam. It was very convenient to meet with my colleague at keukenhof as he is one of the electricians on call for the venue. We followed that with a drink or two over a meal afterwards.
Yeah we spoke about this thread, yeah we laughed and yeah he slagged off.
Apparently the early posts do not closely represent the situation in the country as OP claims, in fact the description of OP my my colleague cannot be portrayed accurately here without using words which offend.

Thanks to this thread I've rekindled a friendship which was likely to be forgotten, we think the last time we met was about 2009/11.

 

[robinbanks]

 

[cdbe]

Like many people I can talk the talk - I can replace XYZ in my CU, connect the cables etc.

I can't walk the walk - Ze, Zs, insulation testing?????

I have an electrician in the family who will advise on and test my "work".

At my last house I didn't enjoy such luxury, I did a loft conversion and DIYed the additions to the socket and lighting circuit and added some mains interlinked smoke alarms - building control asked for a PIR (it was a while ago), while what I had done was fine, it turned out the installation wasn't connected to earth (excuse my lack of technical knowledge but we got Southern Electric out and they said the lead sheath round the cable had rotted away.) I would have been in blissful ignorance of this, so I'm a lot more wary now.

I don't know why the OP is in such urgent need of extra ways when he is planning to replace the CU as soon as the isolation issue is resolved but my own temporary bodge in that situation would be to combine the two lighting circuits (if that's what they are) into a single way.