New doors, crap fitting

[10monty]

I think the legal position is that you cannot refuse to pay him, but must give him the opportunity to rectify the problems then sue him through small claims court for damages ( presumably new doors & fitting) if you are still not happy. That is how it used to be anyway but perhaps things have changed lately. You at least need to give him the opportunity to explain how he is going to give you satisfaction.

I don't want him back tbh but will allow him to visit Tuesday to sort out his mess. If he can't get it right first time I'm not sure how he will 2nd time round.
I'm going to ring citizens advice tomorrow to see where we stand. The information on their website talks about getting money back from a tradesman but we haven't paid him anything and we bought the doors ourselves

 

[10monty]

You should've realised he wasn't a real chippy when he showed up with a badger in his bag rather than a router.
Jokes apart, those doors need skipping now.
To be honest, £600 for 8 doors is WAAAAY too cheap.
And to do them in less than a day is just impossible, unless anyone thinks that chewed doors with pencil marks all over them are acceptable.
Your last problem is that he didn't seal the bottom.
Many chippies don't do that for internal doors, especially hardwood, and the doors are fine.
Your only solution now is to get to howdens and see if you can manage to get all of those doors replaced.
The standard of that fitting is not even diy.

I've just checked the tops of the doors that have been trimmed and they haven't been varnished so can only assume same applies to the bottom.

 

[johnny2007]

I think the legal position is that you cannot refuse to pay him, but must give him the opportunity to rectify the problems then sue him through small claims court for damages ( presumably new doors & fitting) if you are still not happy. That is how it used to be anyway but perhaps things have changed lately. You at least need to give him the opportunity to explain how he is going to give you satisfaction.

That's incorrect.
You can put the ball in his court by not paying him, send him a letter/email explaining why and then let him sue you.
If he's so stupid to do so, you could counterclaim for the cost of the doors because to be honest, those doors cannot be saved .
Bear in mind they're new doors, so whatever he does they will never be perfect as they should be.

 

[10monty]

If he comes back Tuesday and we're still not happy with it obv we're going to withhold payment but if he refuses to supply new doors cos they're irreparable I guess we're at deadlock unless we decide to go small claims court, is that pretty much the situation.
In all honesty I am anticipating him not showing up but we'll see

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Keep us informed..

 

[10monty]

Spoke to citizens advice today. We are within our rights to withhold 100% of the payment if we feel the job hasn't been done to a standard that is satisfactory and we are also entitled to claim for damages, ie new doors, if they are beyond repair. If he refuses we could go thru small claims but hoping it doesn't come to that.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

...we are also entitled to claim for damages, ie new doors, if they are beyond repair.

Well, I had a look at the Howdens site, and from what you wrote this is the type of door you have (Dordogne Oak):

Having looked closely at that I think that a good "plastic man" might be able to blend in a straightforward lipping repair providing the grain is similar, but it may always be visible to a degree, and the plastic man will likely add £250 to £300 to the job (that's for half a day's work, but they are generally worth the money to us on big jobs). The only way I can think of to make a near invisible joinery repair is to use a triangular section repair pieced into each door leading edge (or an invisible lipping - the green piece below):

But I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be doable on site, as it really requires a workshop with a spindle moulder, so I'm beginning to think that the only satisfactory solution may well be complete replacement. Out of interest I also had a look at my PL and PI insurance, and went onto the Hiscox site, to confirm what I already thought - namely that neither insurance covers any claim arising from defective workmanship. There is a presumption of competence. So if he doesn't cough-up you may well end up at Small Claims.

We are all human, and we all make mistakes. As a tradesman the thing is to look at the work you are doing and ask yourself, "Would I pay for this in my house?". If the answer is "No!", then maybe it's time to stop digging. This guy hasn't learned that

 

[10monty]

Thanks for the detailed reply. My question to him also would be the same, would you accept this in your house?
As a sole trader I can't believe he's happy to walk away from it feeling like he's done a good job.
If he's ****ed the first one up you wouldn't carry on and do the same with the rest surely

 

[10monty]

I can see why you are annoyed. I wouldn't be happy.

Mind you, £600 for 8 doors sounds cheap. That said, it depends on how good the frames and door stops are.

Edit- the varnish issue is probably down to the type of varnish originally used. If you sand polyurethane back partially and try to varnish over the rest, you will get a distinct "step". Ideally, the whole edge would have been sanded back and then varnished. The price that you paid wouldn't have allowed for that- not a criticism of you- the chippie should have warned you if it is true that he has fitted loads of those doors.

The price seems the only good thing you got don't pay they need replacing full stop

Out of interest, what would be a reasonable price to pay?
We're in Peterborough if it makes any difference. The other 2 quotes we got were both £560 so maybe thsts the rate here

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Out of interest, what would be a reasonable price to pay?
We're in Peterborough if it makes any difference. The other 2 quotes we got were both £560 so maybe thsts the rate here

I don't think that the price is out of order, but I would have expected to spend 2 fairly full days doing the job (not throw it all in any old how and do a "job and knock" - incidentally, not how I got my nickname!!!), possibly a bit more time given that the keeps would have required Dutchmen and the door casing reveals might need to be repainted (maybe a point for negotiation with the client when you take a job like this).

All I can say about the work is that any experienced tradesman should know the value and importance of using jigs for certain tasks (for accuracy and repeatability). I think it likely that the guy must have used a router and jig for the hinges (maybe not, he might be an ace with hinges), but I'd say anyone locking-out on a regular basis would normally be carrying some form of jig to make his work more consistent (such as a Souber DBB) and avoid errors such as boring out of line or off centre for the latch bodies as he did. I know that the purists might complain that back in the day guys did it all by hand, but my response is that I've seen a lot of that work from "back in the day" and a lot of it is nothing to write home about, and that even with jigs and routers there's still a fair bit of marking out, chiselling, drilling, etc to be done all by hand

If you already know you are going to a client where you will need to do a bit of touching up it, then you should make it standard practice to carry sanders, abrasives, basic painting gear, etc (even when I installed kitchens I used to do this). If you can't or won't do touch-up work like that, then you need a decorator mate who'll help you out from time to time (and who you'll pay) - or alternatively you need to negotiate with the client for them to do/have done the deco work (although just how hard is it to sand the edge of a door and relacquer it to a reasonable standard?), and if the client won't work with you on this (and it's their choice, after all), you should politely walk away from the job - and maybe go off and learn how to do simple painting jobs for the future

 

[johnny2007]

Spoke to citizens advice today. We are within our rights to withhold 100% of the payment if we feel the job hasn't been done to a standard that is satisfactory and we are also entitled to claim for damages, ie new doors, if they are beyond repair. If he refuses we could go thru small claims but hoping it doesn't come to that.

Told you

 

[mrrusty]

anyone locking-out on a regular basis would normally be carrying some form of jig to make his work more consistent (such as a Souber DBB) and avoid errors such as boring out of line or off centre for the latch bodies as he did. I know that the purists might complain that back in the day guys did it all by hand, but my response is that I've seen a lot of that work from "back in the day" and a lot of it is nothing to write home about, and that even with jigs and routers there's still a fair bit of marking out, chiselling, drilling, etc to be done all by hand

This!!! If you are doing this regularly why wouldn't you? I have a souber, and I'm DIY/family handyman - doesn't get used that often, but when it does is a very useful tool. Cutting face plates within a few mm of an edge without break out is too much of a risk for me. I know us DIYers always have time on our side, but there's no excuse for that quality workmanship.

When you pay someone to do work, the contract isn't just to do the work, it's to do the work with the reasonable skill and care that a professional person in that trade would be expected to do. Very poor workmanship is a breach of contract. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/c...ovements-done/problem-with-home-improvements/

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

This!!! If you are doing this regularly why wouldn't you? I have a souber, and I'm DIY/family handyman - doesn't get used that often, but when it does is a very useful tool. Cutting face plates within a few mm of an edge without break out is too much of a risk for me. I know us DIYers always have time on our side, but there's no excuse for that quality workmanship.

My replacement door fitting at home, was a once in a lifetime job. I had never tackled door fitting before and all I had were the basic tools, no jigs or routers. If I could manage to make a decent job of it from a standing start, there is no excuse for anyone claiming to be an experienced professional and being paid to make such a mess of it.

 

[10monty]

Quick update, he's turned up!
Unfortunately my missus home on her own, although she's feisty, he's claiming nobody's ever gone round inspecting his work in that detail and he's never had a complaint so not sure really what our problem is .
He's said he's going to fill where he can which we're really not happy about but she's going to let him do one and then check it.
He's turned up with an attitide and she feels uncomfortable now so I've told her to ask him to leave if she's not happy

 

[johnny2007]

If that's his best, boot him out of the house.