People using the Yellow/Green core in flex as a live conducter!

[JohnW2]

To summarise, ban all sheds thinks it's text book bad workmanship, and John thinks it's basically allowed by default because they specifically only disallowed some other similar things.

More-or-less, and that's why I was keen to discover whether he would still have regarded it as 'textbook bad workmanship' if the regulation had explicitly said that one CAN over-sleeve a G/Y core and use it as a live conductor. If his answer is 'no', then we are merely disagreeing about how explicitly clear the present wording of the regulation is. However, he seems unable or unprepared to answer that question.

So in the absence of a referee, let's go back to common sense - is it a risk to do that, when you otherwise have an earth at the ends, worth the cost of going back the wholesalers?

That is, indeed, the underlying question, and opinions will undoubtedly vary. However, I am sure of one thing - that if one decides that there IS an appreciable risk, then that remains case even if to do things more safely would upset the decoration - yet BAS seems to have suggested otherwise.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I have used C crimps on an earth wire in traywork to branch from it earthing the traywork which carried it, and it is common to connect to single earth wires along their lenght, OK I will admit these earth wires were not 6mm the branches were 6 mm the main earth was 25 mm, but I can never the less see the danger with singles, we of course can cut into multi-core cables,

I have cut off a damaged plug and fitted a new one, without checking the way it was wired, only when I find black and white instead of blue and brown do I actually get a meter out and check.

I think the chance of cutting a multi-core cable and reconnecting without tracing is slim, and in real terms it is less likely to cause a problem. I can see where a cable is disconnected by a diffrent person to the one reconnecting then errors can be made, however the electric would really need to be silly to connect without testing.

 

[JohnW2]

I have used C crimps on an earth wire in traywork to branch from it earthing the traywork which carried it, and it is common to connect to single earth wires along their lenght ... I think the chance of cutting a multi-core cable and reconnecting without tracing is slim, and in real terms it is less likely to cause a problem.

Exactly, and that's why I believe that the author of the regulation deliberately 'singled out' G/Y singles for prohibition of over-sleeving, believing that the practice was acceptable (and not 'bad workmanship') with G/Y-insulated cores of multi-core cables.

That doesn't mean that I'm very comfortable with the practice, but I could understand the reasoning.

As I wrote to BAS, failing to understand that a blue conductor over-sleeved with brown is being used as a line conductor (i.e. thinking it is a 'neutral') is, in practice, very often going to be just as disastrous as failing to understand that a G/Y conductor over-sleeved with brown is being used as a line conductor (i.e. thinking it is a CPC) - yet BAS seems to regard the former as OK, but the latter as unacceptably poor workmanship.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Exactly, and that's why I believe that the author of the regulation deliberately 'singled out' G/Y singles for prohibition of over-sleeving, believing that the practice was acceptable (and not 'bad workmanship') with G/Y-insulated cores of multi-core cables.

That doesn't mean that I'm very comfortable with the practice, but I could understand the reasoning.

As I wrote to BAS, failing to understand that a blue conductor over-sleeved with brown is being used as a line conductor (i.e. thinking it is a 'neutral') is, in practice, very often going to be just as disastrous as failing to understand that a G/Y conductor over-sleeved with brown is being used as a line conductor (i.e. thinking it is a CPC) - yet BAS seems to regard the former as OK, but the latter as unacceptably poor workmanship.

Kind Regards, John

Getting a live wire mixed up is very different from a earth to live wire. Remember neutral is considered as live. I have never considered it acceptable to use the same colour for a phase as neutral however for years blue was both a phase colour with fixed installation and neutral with portable, it is like swapping from driving on left to driving on right and having the wagons do it this year and cars next year.

We have the same with black, for years is was neutral, now it's a phase colour.

We have swapped phase and neutral colours for so long now, no one can really complain. Earth was originally green, however red/green colour blindness is common so it was changed to green/yellow.

I can understand where some fixed inaccessible wiring, say the supply to wall thermostat, is found to need a neutral after the thermostat is changed, so some one uses the earth wire as a neutral and over sleeves it. I don't think it's right, but can understand it, and if in the future some one connects it to earth, then it may trip the RCD, but unlikely to do much else.

However I have seen one meter lengths of flex from a junction box to a cylinder thermostat which could be changed to 4 core in minutes, and some one has used the earth wire as a line.

When I wanted to fit a third light switch in my mothers room I needed 4 cores, since one core with most 4 core is coloured green/yellow I bought 5 core, it was actually the same price, so why does anyone with an original installation over sleeve the earth wire?

It asked for who designed, who installed and who inspected and tested, and clearly if you need to use the earth wire there is something wrong with the design.

 

[JohnW2]

Getting a live wire mixed up is very different from a earth to live wire. Remember neutral is considered as live.

We may 'consider' it to be 'live', but my point was that one will get as big (if not bigger) a bang by connecting neutral to line (i.e. 'connecting two lives' if you wish) as one will by connecting earth to line.

Hence the idiot who doesn't understand the significance of brown over-sleeving on a blue is potentially in as much trouble as if he doesn't understand the significance of brown over-sleeving on a G/Y.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I see, red to red, yellow to yellow, and blue to bits?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

To summarise, ban all sheds thinks it's text book bad workmanship, and John thinks it's basically allowed by default because they specifically only disallowed some other similar things.

I'm beginning to wonder if I am the only one for whom these highlighted words are visible in the topic:

I would regard it as a contravention unless there was no reasonable alternative.

Please note I did say "unless there was no reasonable alternative". If there was a reasonable alternative, such as using a 4-core flex, but you just CBA to do that, I would have no hesitation in saying that using 3-core because you CBA was neither good workmanship nor the use of proper materials.

And a number of subsequent variations on that theme.​

So in the absence of a referee, let's go back to common sense - is it a risk to do that, when you otherwise have an earth at the ends, worth the cost of going back the wholesalers?

There are no risks in the scenario I described earlier:

Assume a house was rewired with all the cables clipped to the surface of the walls and ceilings, running at all sort of odd angles from one point to another, with unnecessary (but unconcealed) round brown JBs all over the place, with grey and white cables randomly mixed, with different sizes ditto, with cables randomly changing direction, with accessories all at different heights, all of them crooked, all of them different makes, and different colours, and different styles, some or all of them second-hand and filthy dirty (but sound) and not one reg (e.g. mechanical risks or minimum CCC, or loop impedance etc) contravened, and compliance with every single explicit regulation.

Assume it was the most clumsy, carelessly done, ugly dogs breakfast of a job the world had ever seen, so bad that it made you cringe and feel nauseous, but nevertheless was safe.​

But despite it being safe, despite it contravening no regulations, despite it all being allowed, and therefore "acceptable" in the eyes of the people who wrote the book, some of us think this:

You are talking about a ... situation, in which there clearly was 'poor workmanship'.

So clearly some of us do not believe that work needs to be unsafe, or even in contravention of any other regulation, for it to be in contravention of 134.1.1.

What about you? Would you say that that scenario was poor workmanship or not?

Do you think there is any point to 134.1.1 if all that is needed to comply is not contravening any other regulation, given that not contravening regulations is taken as read?

Do you think it is superfluous, because nothing which does not explicitly contravene any regulation can be said to be of poor workmanship?

 

[JohnW2]

I see, red to red, yellow to yellow, and blue to bits?

I suppose that's one way of putting it

The person who thinks that a G/Y over-sleeved with brown is a CPC will get a bang if he/she connects it to some other (real) CPC or something earthed - but so will the person who thinks that a blue over-sleeved with brown is a neutral and connects it to some other (real) neutral.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

More-or-less, and that's why I was keen to discover whether he would still have regarded it as 'textbook bad workmanship' if the regulation had explicitly said that one CAN over-sleeve a G/Y core and use it as a live conductor. If his answer is 'no', then we are merely disagreeing about how explicitly clear the present wording of the regulation is. However, he seems unable or unprepared to answer that question.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'll not discuss it any more with you.

 

[JohnW2]

I'll not discuss it any more with you.

I wonder whether that means that he doesn't know the answer to my question (which seems very unlikely) or that he realises that answering it truthfully would undermine all he has been saying?

Kind Regards, John

 

[John D v2.0]

There are no risks in the scenario I described earlier:

Well, that kind of depends on clarity. A lot of the regs about labelling etc are so anyone using or extending it gets something predictable.
Since using Gy for a live or whatever is unexpected, maybe that makes it unsafe.
I would say your scenario is worse, but at least it's obviously bad.
Even having two different circuits (or phases) in one accessory, although regs compliant, would perhaps be bad workmanship in a domestic setting.

I'm beginning to wonder if I am the only one for whom these highlighted words are visible in the topic:

I think this is the crux of the matter. Regs are something you'd be able to look afterwards and objectively say they contravene. Unless you had to leave a note explaining why you did it, them it would be difficult to say whether it complies or not.
I feel like it's just a case of don't do it, rather than contravening. But I'm happy to go with whatever the result is!

I can understand where some fixed inaccessible wiring, say the supply to wall thermostat, is found to need a neutral after the thermostat is changed, so some one uses the earth wire as a neutral and over sleeves it.

Well that would indeed be non compliant unless you had an earth at the thermostat by some other route. You still need an earth even if it's not supplied by that flex. Unless it's a thermostat that's not part of the fixed wiring, but then changing the wire probably wouldn't be an issue.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It means I'll not discuss it any more with you.

 

[JohnW2]

It means I'll not discuss it any more with you.

Having recently written ...

I wonder whether that means that he doesn't know the answer to my question (which seems very unlikely) or that he realises that answering it truthfully would undermine all he has been saying?

... I will leave it to others, as well as myself, to draw their conclusions.

Kind Regards John

 

[John D v2.0]

Well, everyone's a winner in this discussion! Time to give up and go home for a drink

Bring back the thread about ze, that was quite interesting