Phase and neutral (France)

[Justin Passing]

Well, yes, obviously you need both L and N to make a circuit.
N was included in #20.
But early in the thread it was suggested that N had to be taken round the switches circuit .
Winston suggested a reason, for France (neons).
I queried it for the UK.
You asked where N was.
I showed you, in a schematic diagram that IS representative of the actual locations of the conductors.

"It doesn't have to come back if the light is at the far end." But in the circuit I have been asking about, the light is not at the far end.
So the Neutral doesn't have to go all over the place.

Thank you for your ... help.

 

[SUNRAY]

I assume you are not in France as T & E is not used there.

What do you mean? What do they use instead?
The T&E supplied to me in France by a French supplier to be installed in France was most certainly twin and earth. Exactly the same thing happened in Germany and Spain.

 

[winston1]

What do you mean? What do they use instead?
The T&E supplied to me in France by a French supplier to be installed in France was most certainly twin and earth. Exactly the same thing happened in Germany and Spain.

They use singles in gaine (conduit).

I don't know about Germany and Spain.

 

[SUNRAY]

They use singles in gaine (conduit).

I don't know about Germany and Spain.

Yep

But the work I did in La Forestel in a 12 bedroom git was all round T&E packed out with cotton adding to existing similar T&E. When we ran out it was a 5 mile trip to the shop for more.

All the armour to outbuildings, swimming pool, outside lights etc was all red, blue, yellow which I assumed was UK spec but i don't actually know that.

 

[ChrisEll66]

UK twin and earth isn't used but the French use 3 core cable as well as singles. Earth's double insulated but it's 3 core cable. Singles are more common inside but cables are used.
And there's no requirement in the Normes to take a neutral to a light switch.

 

[Pat ex]

All the armour to outbuildings, swimming pool, outside lights etc was all red, blue, yellow which I assumed was UK spec but i don't actually know that.

That's designed for 3 phase.

 

[winston1]

Yep

But the work I did in La Forestel in a 12 bedroom git was all round T&E packed out with cotton adding to existing similar T&E. When we ran out it was a 5 mile trip to the shop for more.

That is not twin and earth which as I said is not used in France. It is three core cable.

 

[Pat ex]

That is not twin and earth which as I said is not used in France. It is three core cable.

There is a three core cable, with Brown, Blue and Green/yellow, in a mouse proof format.
It's round, not like UK T&E flat.

 

[SUNRAY]

That is not twin and earth which as I said is not used in France. It is three core cable.

No it definitely had a bare earth and the 'builders' were surprised when we added green/yellow sleeving as the existing was was left bare.

I had some left over and I'm sure used it back home somewhere.

 

[Ragnar_AT]

Only countries following UK wiring practices and Norway use T&E. All other European countries that I‘m aware of use 3-core with full-sized CPC. Some countries (Ireland, Poland) have flat cables, most use round. I‘m fairly sure bare reduced-site CPCs don‘t conform to NF.

 

[Risteard]

There is a three core cable, with Brown, Blue and Green/yellow, in a mouse proof format.
It's round, not like UK T&E flat.

Not sure what you mean by mouse-proof format, but it's probably something like NYM-J that you're referring to.

 

[FrodoOne]

There has been some "discussion" here concerning what is (or is not) "Twin and Earth" or "Three Core Cable"

Our "American Cousins" blithely refer to 2/14 or 2/12 Cable (Romex) when they actually mean
a "Cable" with two Insulated Conductors plus, an unmentioned, bare (uninsulated) Ground/Earth conductor
(with the /12 or /14 meaning AWG 12 or 14, respectively.)

Fairley obviously, "Twin and Earth" (in UK and other parlance) should refer to a "cable" with two conductors (Line and Neutral), plus an Earth conductor.
In North America (and the UK) "standards" have not yet caught up with most of the rest of the world (EU [including Ireland]. Australia etc.), where it has been and is "required" that the Earth/Ground conductor be surrounded by insulation, up to the standard of the insulation required for the current carrying conductors.
Any such insulation obviates any necessity for "electrical practitioners" to "sleeve" any (non-existent) bare Earth conductor.
(North American counterparts still leave such Ground(Earth) conductors bare - at their peril - considering the easily accessible bare "Line" screws on "equipment" within the "boxes" concerned !

In Australia (and EU countries) "Twin and Earth" cable is a "Three Core" cable, (with appropriate colours) and with all conductors insulated to the
same standard.
(See https://www.bunnings.com.au/olex-1mm-two-core-and-earth-flat-electrical-cable-per-metre_p4430088 where one can see that the Earth" conductor is insulated.)

(Note that while EU "Harmonised Colors" for "Building Wire" are "allowed" in Australia, "Building Wire" cables with such colours have never been made/produced or sold in Australia!)

Purely "Twin Core" cable is also available in Australia and often used for "Switch Loops"
(https://www.bunnings.com.au/cable-elect-2core-twinact-p-m-1mm-solid-cacp02a1002wvab_p4430073 )

Having the "White" insulated conductor as the "Switched Line" obviates any need to "re-designate" it in any other way !

 

[winston1]

So no earth wire to switches then?
I do like the idea of a dedicated colour for switched wires though.

Pedant alert. I know white is not a colour.

 

[SUNRAY]

I do like the idea of a dedicated colour for switched wires though.

I'm with you on this, The council house I grew up in had rubber/cotton singles in split tube the SLs were pinky grey (I suspect may have been supposed to be white but the colour leached from the red and black?)

 

[FrodoOne]

So no earth wire to switches then?
I do like the idea of a dedicated colour for switched wires though.

There is no "need" for an "Earth" connection to any "Light Switch" in Australia (NZ), since there is nothing "metallic" on the "body" of the switches themselves or the (plastic) "Switch Plates" in which they are Installed.
There is nothing to which an Earth conductor could be attached !

https://www.bunnings.com.au/hpm-excel-1-gang-wall-switch_p7050000 and

https://www.bunnings.com.au/hpm-10a-white-switch-mechanism_p7053717

are examples of the complete "isolation" from "Earth" on such equipment.

There are metal "cover plates" available (in various finishes), but these "plates" are actually on a plastic "substrate" and are (therefore) "double insulated." !
(https://connectedswitchgear.com.au/.../cover-plates-basix-s-series/stainless-steel/ )

There is no way in which any such "cover plate" could be "Earthed" !