RCD test on all circuits or just once for each RCD?

[JohnW2]

I'm told it was the Home Office John, the hows and whys escape me, however the words "crown immunity" often also come up: .... So defintaly pre RCD era ... Thats all I know John, like I said, I imagine it probably was relativly rare.

Fair enough.

The main part of this which I really don't understand is that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no (and never has been any) legislation or other mandatory regulations which could explicitly 'prohibit' this practice, so it is not very clear who could, or would need to, "give special permission' for it to be done.

BS7671 and, I presume, the Wiring Regs before it, certainly does 'prohibit' the practice, but there has (to the best of my knowledge) never been any obligation to conform/comply with those. Even today, the guidance (Approved Doc P) to the legislation (Part P) merely indicates that demonstration of compliance with BS7671 is one way of demonstrating compliance with the law - and, in any event, we are clearly talking about a time (pre-RCD era) long before Part P.

If it were done today, in violation of BS7671, one would certainly have to be able to produce a "special argument" that it was compliant with the law (Part P), but that would be down to the perpetrator, and I am not aware of any person, government department or body who would/could be able to "give special permission" which meant that the perpetrator did not have to produce his/her own argument.

I'm not doubting what you're saying of the past - I merely don't understand exactly what it meant! I suspect that the truth may be that it is something which was simply sometimes done (without any "special permission from anyone), contrary to what the Wiring Regs of the time said, but that there was no compulsion to comply with those regs.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Risteard]

It breaches the statutory ESQCR.

 

[JohnD]

It breaches the statutory ESQCR.

I don't see how. Which paragraph do you have in mind?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2665/contents/made

 

[JohnW2]

It breaches the statutory ESQCR.

I wondered about that, but does ESQCR apply to wiring within installations?

Furthermore, I believe (although may be wrong) that the first appearance of ESQCR was in 1988. If that is the case, it clearly would not have been in existence at the time (in the 'pre-RCD era') Adam was talking about.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnD]

does ESQCR apply to wiring within installations?

No, it's networks.

It will be interesting to see what Risteard says.

I don't recall the Electricity Act mentioning it, but it's not a question I've ever needed to look up.

 

[Risteard]

8(4) of ESQCR

 

[John D v2.0]

8(4) of ESQCR

(4) A consumer shall not combine the neutral and protective functions in a single conductor in his consumer’s installation.

 

[JohnD]

Well that's interesting.

I must have been thinking of 2.(1, etc) which says who they apply to.

 

[333rocky333]

CNE is not allowed within an installation,

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...t_data/file/82784/GuidElectSafety_Quality.pdf

Bs 7671 refers to page 19, 8 (4)



"Consumers may not combine the functions of neutral and protective conductors in their installations, i.e. consumers must not operate TN-C systems or use CNE cables within their installations. Distributors operating such systems must comply with additional requirements (see regulation 9 Protective multiple earthing)".

 

[Taylortwocities]

Good spot, Rocky

 

[JohnD]

I remember seeing it now, but I can't think where.

Perhaps it actually was ESQCR. It wouldn't have occurred to me to look there though.

Riskeard was right and I was wrong. Sorry.

 

[JohnW2]

8(4) of ESQCR ... "A consumer shall not combine the neutral and protective functions in a single conductor in his consumer’s installation."

... I must have been thinking of 2.(1, etc) which says who they apply to.

I'm getting a bit confused here. Whilst there is no denying what 8(4) says, as JohnD has implied, 2(xxx) does not seem to indicate that the regulations apply to consumers (which I thought they didn't, hence my earlier comment/question).

If a piece of legislation does not include consumers in the scope of those to whom the legislation applies, how can it impose requirements/ restrictions on what consumers may or may not do?

Kind Regards, John

 

[333rocky333]

Fair enough.

The main part of this which I really don't understand is that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no (and never has been any) legislation or other mandatory regulations which could explicitly 'prohibit' this practice, so it is not very clear who could, or would need to, "give special permission' for it to be done.

BS7671 and, I presume, the Wiring Regs before it, certainly does 'prohibit' the practice, but there has (to the best of my knowledge) never been any obligation to conform/comply with those. Even today, the guidance (Approved Doc P) to the legislation (Part P) merely indicates that demonstration of compliance with BS7671 is one way of demonstrating compliance with the law - and, in any event, we are clearly talking about a time (pre-RCD era) long before Part P.

If it were done today, in violation of BS7671, one would certainly have to be able to produce a "special argument" that it was compliant with the law (Part P), but that would be down to the perpetrator, and I am not aware of any person, government department or body who would/could be able to "give special permission" which meant that the perpetrator did not have to produce his/her own argument.

I'm not doubting what you're saying of the past - I merely don't understand exactly what it meant! I suspect that the truth may be that it is something which was simply sometimes done (without any "special permission from anyone), contrary to what the Wiring Regs of the time said, but that there was no compulsion to comply with those regs.

Kind Regards, John

John i trained to the 14th regs and have the book
REG B119 allowed Earthed concentric wiring, but in them days the ESR regs were from 1937 whereas now there 2002 i think.

Anyway the reg allowed 3 options one of which.

Where the supply undertaking concerned has been specifically authorised in respect of the installation in question by the secretary of state for energy or the secretary of state for Scotland (or, outside England,wales and Scotland by the corresponding authority) to permit additional connections of the neutral conductor to earth

 

[John D v2.0]

2(xxx) does not seem to indicate that the regulations apply to consumers (which I thought they didn't, hence my earlier comment/question)

Maybe the upshot is that the DNO must disconnect you/refuse to connect you if you do that?

 

[Taylortwocities]

John i trained to the 14th regs and have the book

Its not in here then?