Thermal store, solid fuel & copper pipe

bernardgreen said:
The point is I think out of the box and am not restricted to the box full of training notes that so many "engineers" consider are the only way to think about things.

OK explain what happens when the temperature of the water in the store is close to boiling point and the solid fuel stove is still producing heat into the store. Would you remove the burning fuel from the stove or rely on the air damper to close of the air supply ( think carbon monoxide ) and reduce the heat output from the stove down to a level that can be dissipated from the store and/or central heating radiators.
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If you design the system properly then why would your system boil? We live in modern times and the young eco friendly millennials would be on the phone like woodpeckers of their systems boiled..
 
oilboffin said:
My heatstore collects from solid,oil and solar panels.it holds 2000lts and there are removable panels
to allow maintenance.made it myself from 6mm copper fully brazed.
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I'd like to see a picture of that;) Where did you get 6mm copper.
 
I'm an engineer in an earlier life and know lots of fabrication firms who keep stock or can get the stock in for me yes it's very expensive but it'll see me out plus I've a large workshop with lots of machine tools as I used to make stationary engines as a hobby,but I digress it took an age to build but I built it in situ and I have built a good deal of redundancy into it so if it has a fault in bad weather it will be ok to run on till the weather improves.It's probably my best work yet.
 
I see the Professionals are admitting to their limitations, whereas others keep going... If it wasn't so serious it would almost be laughable.

From my limited experience with solid fuel, the system had to be designed as fail safe so 'component failure' was never a factor. You cannot rely on anything with a possibility of failure to control a heat source that in itself has very limited control. This business of dumping hot water into the drains, and replacing with cold worries me immensely. Firstly I hope the property isn't on a metered supply, and secondly, what happens in the event of mains supply failure? I was always under the impression a heat sink capable of dissipating any excess heat safely was required, often a large radiator.
 
Safe Cold Water System (SCWS) I believe its called.
The heating appliance is fitted with an internal coil. Only a few stove manufacturers incorporate the system who then can have the appliance approved for sealed system compatibility.
 
Hugh Jaleak said:
what happens in the event of mains supply failure? I was always under the impression a heat sink capable of dissipating any excess heat safely was required, often a large radiator.
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Using a large radiator is one option, but if the mains failure is a failure of mains electricity and not water then dissipation would have to rely on gravity induced flow as pumped cisrculation would not be an option. There cannot be any valves that need opening as wthout power to open them gravity circulation would not be possible.

Hugh Jaleak said:
I see the Professionals are admitting to their limitations,
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This is NOT a comment about individuals. The system of regulation provides a set of standards and regulations which the tradespeople work to. As long as a tradesperson complies with those standards and regulations his or her work is of the required standard. All known risks and hazards that have been considered by those who set the standards and regulations have been eliminated ( or worked around ).

When an accident occurs as a result of an unknown risk there is invariable a knee jerk reaction to change the regulations. Often the changes to regulations have been pre-empted by a few tradespeople and DIYers who saw there was a risk of a hazard being created and devised a way to eliminate that risk.
 
What Bernie the bolt was wittering on about was the use of a quench coil inside the appliance or thermal store. You cannot use a quench coil where the water supply is gravity fed or relies on a pump in the property. A heat leak radiator is indeed the primary means of keeping the system temperature in check as is the practise of ensuring that if all else fails, the system can boil safely but if the customer complains of the system boiling, then you know that all other measures have failed...
Quench coils are fitted to the appliance at manufacturing and are quite rare in boiler stoves, there is a thermostatic valve that opens and permits cold water to flow through the coil inside the boiler and out to a drain to cool the boiler if things get out of hand.. They are more usually fitted to pellet or log gassifiers and allow the system to be sealed and pressurised..
 
bernardgreen said:
Using a large radiator is one option, but if the mains failure is a failure of mains electricity and not water then dissipation would have to rely on gravity induced flow as pumped cisrculation would not be an option. There cannot be any valves that need opening as wthout power to open them gravity circulation would not be possible.



This is NOT a comment about individuals. The system of regulation provides a set of standards and regulations which the tradespeople work to. As long as a tradesperson complies with those standards and regulations his or her work is of the required standard. All known risks and hazards that have been considered by those who set the standards and regulations have been eliminated ( or worked around ).

When an accident occurs as a result of an unknown risk there is invariable a knee jerk reaction to change the regulations. Often the changes to regulations have been pre-empted by a few tradespeople and DIYers who saw there was a risk of a hazard being created and devised a way to eliminate that risk.
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The best way to reduce risk is to take your keyboard away....
Pumped system or not, the heat leak must always operate by gravity and there must be a pump bypass in the event of a failure... No valves at all are permitted on primaries to the vent..
 
My stove has no pump it's all gravity on large bore stainless pipe and I have two massive purpose built heatsinks to dissipate any excess or dangerous build up of heat.Bob
 
Firebrand said:
Pumped system or not, the heat leak must always operate by gravity and there must be a pump bypass in the event of a failure... No valves at all are permitted on primaries to the vent..
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Who was the first person to advise the OP that a heat dump was an essential safety feature when solid fuel is used to heat water.?

Firebrand said:
What Bernie the bolt was wittering on about was the use of a quench coil inside the appliance or thermal store.
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So was I right or was I right.

oilboffin said:
I have two massive purpose built heatsinks
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How does one prevent heat being wasted in these heat sinks when the system is operating normally while still ensuring they will be "on line" to dissipate heat when the system goes critical on over heat ?
 
Simple i put them near a fan which feeds the heat into a wickes air reclaim system I bought years ago and works a treat.I think it's only fair to inform you I'm as tight as a ducks bum,and I'll scavenge
every bit of heat I can.Bob
 
bernardgreen said:
Using a large radiator is one option, but if the mains failure is a failure of mains electricity and not water then dissipation would have to rely on gravity induced flow as pumped cisrculation would not be an option. There cannot be any valves that need opening as wthout power to open them gravity circulation would not be possible.



This is NOT a comment about individuals. The system of regulation provides a set of standards and regulations which the tradespeople work to. As long as a tradesperson complies with those standards and regulations his or her work is of the required standard. All known risks and hazards that have been considered by those who set the standards and regulations have been eliminated ( or worked around ).
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Basic rule with a solid fuel appliance is you cannot rely on a pump to dissipate the heat. There must be a sufficient heat sink available via gravity circulation to ensure the appliance remains safe and doesn't overheat the system.

Secondly, certain people who's superior knowledge and experience I respect totally, have admitted this is beyond their understanding and have not offered further advice. You meanwhile have kept on, talking about something that is well beyond your remit, and anyone following your advice could well end up with a dangerous situation.

I also note the spelling mistakes in your post above, yet you were happy to pick up on Oilboffin's mistake. People in Glass houses....
 
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