To RCD or not?

[plugwash]

The question is, will I need to upgrade the board before putting the house on rent? I know the reason why to do it, but it is not mandatory right?

As I understand it.

The law on electricity in rented properties references the 18th edition of BS7671 which requires RCD protection on pretty much everything. However the 18th edition (like many previous) editions says something along the lines of "Existing installations that have been installed in accordance with earlier editions of the Regulations may not comply with this edition in every respect. This does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe for continued use or require upgrading." (I copy/pasted that from an IET page, I know the regs themselves have a substantially similar statement but I'm not 100% sure the wording is identical.

Said law also requires you to get a "satisfactory" electrical inspection. It doesn't explicitly use the term EICR, but that is how the reugulation has been implemented/interpreted in practice. In practice to get a satisfactory inspection any C1 or C2 defects need to be rectified.

The precise coding of defects is not defined by BS7671 itself, and is left somewhat up to the opinion of the inspector and industry guidance. However given what industry guidance says, It would be a pretty foolhardy inspector who gave a house or ground floor flat with no RCD protection at all a "satisfactory" result.

 

[ebee]

It would be a pretty foolhardy inspector who gave a house or ground floor flat with no RCD protection at all a "satisfactory" result.

I have never quite been comfortable with that thinking.

Obviously I`m thinking of the likelyhood of using say power tools/lawnmower outside as being the reason for this thinking.
Yet I have seen, quite a few times, extension leads being dangled out of first floor windows for such usage.
In fact on a flat with the "power" circuits on an RCD but a cooker circuit not on an RCD, guess what? The extension lead was plugged into the Cooker Control Unit Socket (I`ve always thought of such units as old hat, being a throwback to the days of folk not having enough sockets anyway so if a cooker unit with socket outlet added it was a cheap way of getting an extra socket intended for occasional use of a kettle.

 

[ebee]

(The wiring is still in good condition red and blacks with earth's at lighting and sockets.)

How do you know that?

Good question!

 

[ebee]

OK, Devils Advocate,
If you are enting a property and you get an unsat EICR you now have 28 days to rectify.
If you then get, for instance, another 28 firms to do an EICR and 1 or more gives you a sat EICR then could you use that one to demonstrate compliance and merely ignore the others?

 

[ebee]

Personally, if I was aware that someone was attempting to get around the need for RCD protection I would walk.

 

[ericmark]

"Existing installations that have been installed in accordance with earlier editions of the Regulations may not comply with this edition in every respect. This does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe for continued use or require upgrading."

This has always been my thinking, don't have BS7671:2018 but do have BS7672:2008 which says

BS 7671:2008 Requirements for Electrical Installations was issued on 1st January 2008 and is intended to come into effect on 1st July 2008. Installations designed after 30st June 2008 are to comply with BS 7671:2008.

so the regulations within the first few pages refers one to the edition valid when the circuit was designed.

As said most electricians follow the Electrical safety councils best practice guide 4, which lists 4 reasons for giving a code C2 when no RCD, clearly it has always needed a RCD/ELCB when it is a TT installation at least back to the 70's although I would have thought a 100 mA version would have been good enough back then, so not sure what to code if not 30 mA version. As said possible outside use is also listed as code C2, and unless there is a RCD socket provided for outside use or the home has no garden or parking where a car could be charged then that will likely mean a fail with no RCD, the bathroom all depends on bonding used, in the 2008 edition bonding rules were relaxed if RCD protection is provided which would include the lights, and the last of the 4 was when the earth loop impedance was not low enough to cause the MCB to trip on the magnetic part of the trip. So centre of ring needs to show over 1.38 Ω.

There were also some code C3's for missing RCD protection, but in real terms it is unlikely that many home would not attract a C2 coding when RCD protection is missing.

However there is no rule to say we must use the codes when completing an EICR, I had a home buyers report done before buying this house and it included comments on the electrical system complied by a professional so I suppose reading the landlord law would count as an EICR as it did report on the condition of the electrical installation, but there were no codes used, I am sure this is not what the writers of the law intended, and if there was a court case then it would be excluded and case law made, but there is no law as it stands which says items must be coded, and the items covered in the law, does not line up with items normally covered by an EICR, for example the central heating boiler.

The main point however what sort of cowboy landlord would want to rent a property without RCD protection, what ever the law says?

 

[ebee]

As said possible outside use is also listed as code C2, and unless there is a RCD socket provided for outside use

Sorry to be a pain Eric.
I`m unhappy with that thought too.
I have seen instances where a dedicated RCD socket was supplied adjacent to external doors and intended for outside usage yet used by say a fridge/freezer example and therefore the extension lead plugged in to an alternative non RCD socket.

 

[Gigagator]

Another example of a landlord that holds their tenants wellbeing and potentially their life in such low regard. Sad.
But hey, you'll have a few extra quid in your pocket.

 

[ericmark]

Sorry to be a pain Eric.
I`m unhappy with that thought too.
I have seen instances where a dedicated RCD socket was supplied adjacent to external doors and intended for outside usage yet used by say a fridge/freezer example and therefore the extension lead plugged in to an alternative non RCD socket.

If the tenent has option even if not used, then no problem. I think all homes should be RCD protected on all circuits, but I would still follow in the main ESC BPG and if it passes the 4 reasons for code C2, then it passes.

However all RCBO in my own home. Except for the central heating and been issued a compliance certificate for that.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I`m unhappy with that thought too.
I have seen instances where a dedicated RCD socket was supplied adjacent to external doors and intended for outside usage yet used by say a fridge/freezer example and therefore the extension lead plugged in to an alternative non RCD socket.

So what?

An EICR is just that - if people want to do normal things they cannot be prevented by a piece of paper.


Anyway, is "less safe" "potentially dangerous" bearing in mind electricity is "potentially dangerous"?

So, outside use of electrical tools is "potentially dangerous" whether there is an RCD or not.


The system is flawed.

 

[ebee]

Living a life is potentially dangerous. None of us gets out of it alive

 

[ebee]

Seriously though, the points I was making is that sometimes a bit more thought might be appropriate

 

[ericmark]

I am told that early versions of wiring regulations states common sense should prevail. But not found it in any of my copies.

But as to RCD protection, one can still get a nasty shock even with RCD protection. Where the bonding is poor, or where water is around, they can cause the supply to trip before anyone touches it, so are a good idea, but from 1951 when I was born to 1992 approx when I returned from the Falklands I had no RCD protection in my home, and I am still around. The use of better test gear has likely stopped just as many shocks to the RCD. I can test for live so much easier, OK not testing for dead, but although I have had RCD protection of all circuits for many years, I have still had some nasty shocks in the main where some one has not followed safe routes and I was doing non electrical work.

Be it seat belts in cars, or air bags, or a RCD they are can help reducing the danger, but they can't stop it. So there is still some potential danger, even with an RCD fitted.

 

[JohnW2]

Said law also requires you to get a "satisfactory" electrical inspection. It doesn't explicitly use the term EICR, but that is how the reugulation has been implemented/interpreted in practice.

Indeed ...and seemingly that is how it was intended to be interpret, since the "Guidance for Landlords" published by government in relation to that law speaks explicitly about EICRs - to the extent of indicating which EICR coded do (C1,C2,CF) and don't (C3) require remedial action undeer that law.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I have never quite been comfortable with that thinking. .... Obviously I`m thinking of the likelyhood of using say power tools/lawnmower outside as being the reason for this thinking. Yet I have seen, quite a few times, extension leads being dangled out of first floor windows for such usage.

Quite so - I've always felt the same. However, if I recall correctly, when BS7671's requirements for RCDs were much more limited, the requirement existed for sockets "likely to be used for outdoor equipment", without any comment about 'which floor' - so, in the case of an upper-floor flat,it would be down to the installer's/inspector's judgement as to whether it was "likely" to be used for such a purpose.

Having said that, RCD protection of garden etc. equipment is of probably of more limited value than many probably think. At least in my personal experience ( ), the most common 'incident' with such tools is 'chopping through the cable' - and since most are Class II items with 2-core cables, that chopping will not, in itself, usually result in an RCD tripping - thereby leaving one of the cut ends 'live'..

Kind Regards,m John