Track Saw advice...

[Deleted member 174758]

I do occasionally use the 2 times "1400" tracks with the single connector bar. It is not very accurate. I believe that the newer ones have two connector bars though and are vastly superior.

How on earth do you carry a 2.7 metre guide rail around? A pair of 1400s can be carried in a guide rail bag over the shoulder (just ignore the comments about going fishing or who you're going to shoot). Having two rail connectors is better than only one - but the new Festool FSV/2 connectors (improved design) are a great improvement over the original FSV connectors and hold the rails more consistently straight. At nearly twice the price, though, so they should

 

[^woody^]

...so, have you actually gotten around to using a rail saw yet?

No.

I have two guides I made from tuffnol (like worktop mitre guide material), for across sheets, and a long straight edge for along the sheets.

A few months back I did splash out on a 1m Shinwa saw guide (like a large square) and that's great with my little bosch circular.

 

[^woody^]

Hype?

I have an older generation (single) Festool guide rail that is long enough for a 2440mm sheet. I know that it will give me a straight cut, leading in and out. It clamps from the underside, meaning that there are no obstacles.

I can draw pencil lines where I want to cut, line up the rubber edge of the guide rail and be confident that I will have a straight line. I will not need to prepare the cut edge afterwards.

Personally, when it comes to cutting sheet materials, I think that plunge saws on a track are much safer for a novice.

Which ones have you tried?

The OP might cut sheets occasionally (one every other year!), and might be cutting one worktop and a chipboard floor sheet this year.

It would be cheaper to pay my train fare and I'll come and cut them with a jack saw.

But seriously, everyone raves about them, but few people actually need one.
99% of the time, track saws are talked about for 1st fix work, and either way, a circular and straight edge does the job for 1st and 2nd fix.

 

[A.Steve]

You won't run into difficulties if you use a saw without a vacuum other than having to clean up all the time

Thanks. That's the sort of positive info I hoped for. It suggests an enclosed blade would probably suit me best. I'm used to cleaning up between cuts... I wanted to make sure I didn't buy a saw that also required I replace my vacuum cleaner.

I can't justify the Festool/Makita price range for my own use. I've watched more Peter Millard... he seems to think my intuition about the McAllister is misguided... and I'm inclined to believe him. I can't explain why all the enclosed blade designs (at any price point) seem flimsy to me - while I don't get the same impression from the circular saws.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

It would be cheaper to pay my train fare and I'll come and cut them with a jack saw.

Yeah, right.

But seriously, everyone raves about them, but few people actually need one.

I'll not disagree with you there

99% of the time, track saws are talked about for 1st fix work, and either way, a circular and straight edge does the job for 1st and 2nd fix.

That's where I think you are mistaken. Time and again over the last 20 odd years I've had some stuck-in-the-mud joiner (not all of them crusty old duffers, either) tell me that guided plunge saws aren't necessary, cost too much, are no better, are no faster, etc, etc (incidentally, all misconceptions borne perhaps from ignorance or jealously). Due to the circular nature of the construction industry I tend to come across these individuals again in the future. Often, a few years later, they come onto site with...

...a plunge saw with guide rails. This has happened several times now

Basically, if you want to make straight cuts with the minimum of effort, maximum of accuracy, in less time and often zero cleanup, then a plunge saw with guide rails can be priceless. But they do come at a price, and they don't suit every one

So, as you think they are unnecessary, when are you selling your laser, giving away your nail guns, eschewing that foam gun and trading in your pickup for a horse? And what aboutvtrading in your cordless drill for a brace and bit set and maybe a "Yankee" pump screwdriver. After all, your great grandad didn't have any of those - except maybe the "Yankee" (and neither did I, "back in the day")

 

[Deleted member 174758]

That's the sort of positive info I hoped for. It suggests an enclosed blade would probably suit me best. I'm used to cleaning up between cuts... I wanted to make sure I didn't buy a saw that also required I replace my vacuum cleaner.

They don't absolutely need a vacuum - they do work better with one (but so do many other power tools). Part of the time I run my plunge saw with a dust bag on it - mainly when I can't get mains power for a vac.

I can't justify the Festool/Makita price range for my own use...

That's not surprising. The trade brands are pretty spendy for DIY use

I can't explain why all the enclosed blade designs (at any price point) seem flimsy to me - while I don't get the same impression

It's probably just confirmation bias. I've had a few plunge saws over the years (Bosch, Festool, Hilti, Makita) and they are all just as tough as equivalent conventional saws.

 

[opps]

The OP might cut sheets occasionally (one every other year!), and might be cutting one worktop and a chipboard floor sheet this year.

It would be cheaper to pay my train fare and I'll come and cut them with a jack saw.

But seriously, everyone raves about them, but few people actually need one.
99% of the time, track saws are talked about for 1st fix work, and either way, a circular and straight edge does the job for 1st and 2nd fix.

I seldom do first fix.

I recently used my Festool track saw to rip down doors for a mate.

Yeah, on the plastic Stanley workmates, I could have asked someone to hold the door whilst I used my planner, but I decided to use my plunge saw. No one needed to hold the door.

Based on your replies, I do not think that you have used a track saw, let alone a decent quality track saw.

I come from a sheet material background- and that is part of the reason why I will defer to someone like @JobAndKnock. when I need to something not sheet based

I have seen you offer saged/good advice in the past, but sometimes you seem to be instant on standing your ground, why?

Overall, I genuinely think that you have a wider knowledge sphere than me... but you, on occasion, come as being a know all that is unable to back up their knowledge.


Sorry, yeah that is possibly confrontational. That is not my default state or my intention.

Sometimes, I think that your advice is not adequate for DIYers, i will await criticism from you, and it may well be valid.

For what it worth- regards.

 

[A.Steve]

It's probably just confirmation bias. I've had a few plunge saws over the years (Bosch, Festool, Hilti, Makita) and they are all just as tough as equivalent conventional saws.

I think my perception could well be down to an unjustified bias. I can't provide myself with reasoning that I can believe - it's just a first impression - not a considered opinion.

The flip-side is that you're mentioning Bosch, Festool Hilti and Makita... but I'm looking at McAllister, GMC, Evolution, Silverline, Parkside - etc. The ones I'm looking at buying are between a quarter and a third of the price of the ones you name. I keep noticing that knowledgable people seem to prefer units that are priced at three or four times the maximum expense that makes sense to me. I can get a decent circular saw (no track) for £50-£90... or I could get an entry level track saw for £105-£150. I can justify the expense of either option. I'm confident that the circular saw would work for the next 20 years... used on say 5 days each year . If the cheap track saw can be similarly depended upon - then it's worth the premium... assuming it will help me make more accurate cuts than I can manage with a circular saw and straightedge. If I need to pay >£300 for a track saw comparable to the £50-£90 circular saw... then maybe I should only get the circular saw.

 

[big-all]

we need to differentiate between plunge saw and other saws that will run on a track
a full plunge saw can cut to say 10mm from the blade face from a wall[no base in front of blade]
the saw can rub on the blade guard face and can cut 12mm off a door bottom with or without track in situ
it has a fully enclosed blade for maximum dust extraction with a small designed opening for extraction airflow being sufficient to cause a low pressure area around the blade to lift the dust
it will also cut in reverse on the upstroke at the front to give chip free top surface against the rubber
it will plunge with pushing against spring pressure from blade unseen and safe and rise to the covered blade position iff pressure reduced or removed so no blade showing when not physically cutting


ohhh and my thoughts on the swing on my dewalt saw was a bit out rather than 50-75mm swing forward its only 10mm to around 42mm at full plunge depth on an arc

 

[Deleted member 174758]

The flip-side is that you're mentioning Bosch, Festool Hilti and Makita... but I'm looking at McAllister, GMC, Evolution, Silverline, Parkside - etc. The ones I'm looking at buying are between a quarter and a third of the price of the ones you name

I'm in trade. Those are what I use, partly because I need to use 110 volt or cordless (230 volt not permitted). From looking at DIY plunge/rail saws I'd say the same applies, partly because the rail guided DIY saws I've seen (e.g. Erbauer, Parkside, Scheppach/Workzone, Einhell) seem to be mid-market DIY products as opposed to bottom end. Watch a few of the Ten Minute Workshop on cheap saw/track saws (starting with this one and I think you'll get an honest opinion on some of these DIY saws

I keep noticing that knowledgable people seem to prefer units that are priced at three or four times the maximum expense that makes sense to me.

They are the trade tools which are designed for much heavier usage.

I'm confident that the circular saw would work for the next 20 years... used on say 5 days each year . If the cheap track saw can be similarly depended upon - then it's worth the premium... assuming it will help me make more accurate cuts than I can manage with a circular saw and straightedge.

I don't think the saw motor and bearings on tools like the Parkside or Workzone are any better or worse than the same components on their "normal" saws. The difference is that you are paying for theh plunge mechanism, improved guard and more complex base (to accommodate the guide rail). As to more accurate - yes, plu ge saws are far more accurate with less effort.

I started doing trade joinery work with a home made plywood and softwood guide in the early 1980s - because it saved me time, was more accurate and required less clean-up of the edges. It required clamps to use it. About ten years after that I bought my first plunge saw (a none rail Holz-Her Mosquito - manufactured rails were unknown in the UK at that stage). Another ten years on I had a Hilti plunging saw which ran on manufactured rails (in fact Festool rails) but lacked the ability to retract at the end of the cut. Unlike zdIY guides and straight edges those rails didn't require clamps any longer because they had rubber anti slip strips on the bottom. They also came with anti-splinter strips, meaning that I could cut laminated/veneered materials and MFC without spelching or edge chipping. In the ensuing twenty years the 2nd generation rails and joiners cane in and were an improvement, the next saw auto retracted from the cut (safer), the dust extraction got better, and so on. I wouldn't go back to where I started because my current set-up is so much better

But I paid £300 plus for a saw because it has to work hard at times, it must be reliable and when things get broken I need spares support. I really don't see a DIYer expecting a saw to do 300 to 400 hours a year for 5 years, which is what my kit has done (in fact my Festool is now 12 years old whilst the Makita cordless is now 5 years old). The main replacements in that time have been base plates, which do wear out in trade use.

 

[mrrusty]

Couple of points. Track saws have other uses than just cutting sheet material. One is that they are the perfect tool to trim a few mm off the bottom of a door. - You can even trim 1mm - less than the width of the blade! (not when the door is still hanging of course!)

Another point - for usefulness in a home/DIY situation a band saw is a godsend. Mine gets used very frequently. Need a 15mm batten and only got a 25mm? just push it through the band saw. Ripping thin stock is dodgy on a table saw, but PoP and much safer on a band saw. So many different things can be trimmed on a band saw - notched corner on something? easy! - of course there are other ways to do everything, but I'd replace mine in an instant if I lost it for some reason.

 

[^woody^]

Based on your replies, I do not think that you have used a track saw, let alone a decent quality track saw

Be assured I have. Several from most of the brands. Not over-priced and over-hyped Festool though - I don't mix in such circles.

Be also assured that I have trimmed a door, with no help, and just a straight edge, two clamps, and a poxy B&D circular in not much more time that it took you to write your post.

Advising a DIYer not to listen to advice that they need a track saw for two jobs in 2023 and then one in 2025 and the next in 2027, is if I may be so bold, quite good advice.

 

[opps]

How on earth do you carry a 2.7 metre guide rail around? A pair of 1400s can be carried in a guide rail bag over the shoulder (just ignore the comments about going fishing or who you're going to shoot). Having two rail connectors is better than only one - but the new Festool FSV/2 connectors (improved design) are a great improvement over the original FSV connectors and hold the rails more consistently straight. At nearly twice the price, though, so they should

Mine seldom leaves my garage but I did recently lend it and my saw to my stepfather. He got it in to his Mini Countryman.

Perhaps I need to upgrade to the newer 1400's at some point.

I too have the bag for the 1400's and get what you are saying about looking like a fisherman.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Not over-priced and over-hyped Festool though - I don't mix in such circles.

Over priced? Cheaper than a Mafell (qnd Hilti when they were sgill in the market), on a par with the Bosch Milwaukee and Virutex, and when the Makita first appeared there was little difference in price. So are they overpriced, too? Overpriced or not, mine has paid for itself several times over, but maybe that's because of the type of work I sometimes do

Just as there are Festool fanboys, there is a certain type of person who detests Festool simply because it is Festool. I'm beginning to suspect you are one of those. In any case, what sort of joiner are you?

 

[opps]

Over priced? Cheaper than a Mafell (qnd Hilti when they were sgill in the market), on a par with the Bosch Milwaukee and Virutex, and when the Makita first appeared there was little difference in price. So are they overpriced, too? Overpriced or not, mine has paid for itself several times over, but maybe that's because of the type of work I sometimes do

Just as there are Festool fanboys, there is a certain type of person who detests Festool simply because it is Festool. I'm beginning to suspect you are one of those. In any case, what sort of joiner are you?

(Not in respone to @JobAndKnock

I have numerous Festool products, aside from the TSS55 plunge saw, jigsaw,Vecturo oscillating saw and recently purchased ebay track angle grinder, the other 7(?) Festool tools are sanders. As a professional decorator, I can, with confidence, say that the best sanders on the market are either Festool or MIrka. Festool however have a wider range.

When it comes down to it, yeah, I like festool products. I will not be offended if someone calls me a festool fanboi.

Nevertheless I am happy to criticise them. I have the stoopidly expensive Festool Duo LED light, plus stand, it retails at £500. I love that there is absolutely no strobe effect but I hate the fact that, as a decorator, you cannot angle the head to create sympathetic cutting in shadows.

BTW, I wish I had your jigsaw. Mafele's jigsaw looks like a paradigm shift.