Wind Turbines

[Justin Passing]

Show us the evidence you think you have found

Look for yourself you lazy git, and shove your derogatory implication where the sun don't shine.
I can read - which you obviously haven't.
I'm telling you what's out there, dummy (to use one of your words), not presenting a thesis.

Oh it's your daily trolling hour.


The most obvious parameter to miss out to give misleading numbers is the cost of turbine installation (expensive) and short life versus gas combined cycle plants installation and maintenance.

 

[IT Minion]

There we have it, so they can make a profit at 3.7p per unit but we are now having to pay 35p per unit - greedy greedy bastards.

it is gas that has went up in price, not the wind.

Market rates mean everyone is paid the same as the most expensive provider. Except for new renewables which have fixed price contracts.

 

[JohnD]

Almost as if the system was rigged to benefit big business at the expense of the common man.

Who could imagine such a thing?

Hoorah for Windfall Profit Taxes

(Ruled out by our current Conservative Prime Minister and a tiny number of remaining supporters)

 

[Justin Passing]

I haven't looked further, but if you believe wind is cheaper than gas power;
why is it that electrcity energy, which is 66 or so % wind sourced, so much more expensive than gas?

 

[Notch7]

why is it that electrcity energy, which is 66 or so % wind sourced, so much more expensive than gas?

different fuels

 

[JohnD]

I haven't looked further, but if you believe wind is cheaper than gas power;
why is it that electrcity energy, which is 66 or so % wind sourced, so much more expensive than gas?

Pricing policy designed to charge everybody the highest possible price.

 

[IT Minion]

I haven't looked further, but if you believe wind is cheaper than gas power;
why is it that electrcity energy, which is 66 or so % wind sourced, so much more expensive than gas?

To check you're not going mad it's worth asking a different question.

If Wind is the expensive bit why has the price of electricity been rising as more and cheaper wind is added to the grid?

Hornsea 2 was connected earlier this year with another 1.3GW or so of capacity. It only gets paid £58 per MWh it generates.

Also, why would wind become more expensive and drive up the price now? It makes no sense.

But since Gas makes up around 40% of the electricity supply and wind slightly less on average, the fact that Gas has gone up by a factor of 4 or more does explain why the prices have been rising.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

On a political tv prog yesterday, a politician was saying how important it is to move forward with the renewable strategy for environmental reasons but also to ensure consumers have much lower energy bills.

I don't believe this for a second. I'm so cynical about it all, I reckon consumers will never have low energy bills again, even if the underlying infrastructure/process means the bills could, theoretically, be much cheaper. Governments need taxes, businesses need profit.

It was like all the waffle about EV ownership being cheaper compared to petrol/diesel ownership. If it had remained the case that 'filling up' an EV was a lot cheaper, do we not think government would simply come up with other ways to ensure the tax take remained the same. Whether road tolls or whatever.

We'll never have cheap anything again.

 

[Justin Passing]

If Wind is the expensive bit why has the price of electricity been rising as more and cheaper wind is added to the grid?

Well it would, wouldn't it. If wind is expensive and they add more as a %, leccy goes up

Also, why would wind become more expensive and drive up the price now? It makes no sense.

IF the building costs go up, the price of windy leccy goes up.
That's the thing, the return on a turbine is quite low, and they're not very long lived.

Green agenda wins. Gas is free too if it's ours. It's all infrastructure cost.

But since Gas makes up around 40% of the electricity supply and wind slightly less on average, the fact that Gas has gone up by a factor of 4 or more does explain why the prices have been rising.

Those figures don't match the current graphs

The first search hit: This one's a shocker until you read the fine print:

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THis is about the best I could find. Most sources are at least a cople of years old and it's changing rapidly.
Renewables overtook fossils in ~late 2020

Today - 20/10/22 numbers:
411.6 GWh

Total Generated Today

178.2 GWh ............... Fossil Fuels - 43.3 %

178.2 GWh ............... Renewables - 43.3 %

55.3 GWh .................. Low Carbon - 13.4 %



The daily charts for a couple of days ago shows wind at 60+%


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Annoying thing is that energy bills are up because of world prices, nothing to do with the cost of getting the stuff from source. So the consumer puts more money into the generator's profits because there's a world shortage and they could get more money by exporting it.


Nationalise it!!


edited for graphic size, and typo

 

[Justin Passing]

It was like all the waffle about EV ownership being cheaper compared to petrol/diesel ownership. If it had remained the case that 'filling up' an EV was a lot cheaper, do we not think government would simply come up with other ways to ensure the tax take remained the same. Whether road tolls or whatever.

Yep. Wasn't it Scandawegia where they weren't getting enough tax in from petrol so they banged tax up on EVs instead.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Yep. Wasn't it Scandawegia where they weren't getting enough tax in from petrol so they banged tax up on EVs instead.

We're living longer but not always healthier. Services stretched right left and centre. So the tax take needs to be maintained or increased. Not helped by the fact so much of our hard earned that goes on tax is wasted, whether through inefficiencies in staffing (the 'too many managers' debate) or through initiatives and policies that deliver little if anything but cost millions upon millions.

If anyone thinks we'll ever have genuinely lower bills when it comes to things like energy, they're deluded.

 

[IT Minion]

Well it would, wouldn't it. If wind is expensive and they add more as a %, leccy goes up


IF the building costs go up, the price of windy leccy goes up.
That's the thing, the return on a turbine is quite low, and they're not very long lived.

Green agenda wins. Gas is free too if it's ours. It's all infrastructure cost.


Those figures don't match the cuttent graphs

The first search hit: This one's a shocker until you read the fine print:
View attachment 283164

.
.
.
.
.
THis is about the best I could find. Most sources are at least a cople of years old and it's changing rapidly.
Renewables overtook fossils in ~late 2020

View attachment 283165

Today - 20/10/22 numbers:
411.6 GWh

Total Generated Today

178.2 GWh ............... Fossil Fuels - 43.3 %

178.2 GWh ............... Renewables - 43.3 %

55.3 GWh .................. Low Carbon - 13.4 %



The daily charts for a couple of days ago shows wind at 60+%


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Annoying thing is that energy bills are up because of world proces, nothing to do with the cost of getting the stuff from source. So the consumer puts more money into the generator's profits because there's a world shortage and they could get more money by exporting it.


Nationalise it!!

I don't want to sound insulting here but you've misunderstood a lot of what you've found.

Hornsea 2 is contracted to sell all its power at £58. That's almost a quarter of the fixed price rate. It is bringing prices down. There is no possible mechanism for it to bring the cost up.

Why on earth you include a graphic from 2005 I do not understand.

Capacity is not the same as energy produced. Modern wind farms run at an average of about 45%. Solar runs at around 11%, but it's so cheap it still works out cheaper than old Gas prices.

Wind has been doing well at the moment, which is expected as it does better over the winter. But the UK government publishes yearly power breakdowns and Wind is around 40-45% from memory.

Blaming renewables for the increased cost of Gas generated power is madness. There isn't any real dispute that renewables are the cheapest form of energy now, the only thing they are not good at is that they're intermittent.

Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Notch7]

Well it would, wouldn't it. If wind is expensive and they add more as a %, leccy goes up

I dont think that is correct

in 2020 (pre Ukraine)

wind and solar cost forecasts were:
offshore wind £57/ Mhr
solar £44/ Mhr
natural gas £85/ Mhr

Wind and solar are 30-50% cheaper than thought, admits UK government

The most striking result of the new 2020 report is that BEIS has once again slashed its estimates for the levelised cost of wind and solar power. This is illustrated in the chart, below.

www.carbonbrief.org

or another source:

Renewable Power Costs Rise, Just Not as Much as Fossil Fuels​

Costs to build and run new solar and wind facilities are still cheaper than gas or coal plants, BNEF survey finds.

Renewable Power Costs Rise, Just Not as Much as Fossil Fuels

Costs to build and run new solar and wind facilities are still cheaper than gas or coal plants, BNEF survey finds.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[IT Minion]

The 7GW of new offshore wind signed in the most recent round will be selling their power at £37.50*

* in 2012 money for some reason, current value approx £45 per MWh

 

[IT Minion]

Wind farms to pay back £25 to each household through CfD scheme, finds ECIU

Wind farms paying back through the Contracts for Difference (CfD) scheme due to high power prices could now pay back £25 to each household from this October.

www.current-news.co.uk