After some advice: Mild tingle from shower when in use
- Thread starter TheGovernor
- Start date
Hmmm, so the electrician has been.
He went around the house testing with a multi-function meter, he said that the earth to the house is all fine, he was plugging it into sockets and testing against radiator pipes, then against radiator pipes to the shower, in what appeared to be differing combinations...
Nothing, he said he saw 1v at one point but said he was out of ideas as to what is causing it...
SO, I'm not sure whether to feel reassured or not to be honest, I know what I'm feeling, although nobody else in the house has noticed it (which isn't a huge surprise as they're not as observant as me
)!
His only comment was that there didn't appear to be "cross bonding" across all the pipework and that our existing consumer unit is of an old type so it may be wise to replace that with either a split load RCD or an RCBO in line with next years expected regs...
He wondered out loud if it might be intermittent, but no idea how to test that...
It makes me feel like I want a second opinion I think...
He went around the house testing with a multi-function meter, he said that the earth to the house is all fine, he was plugging it into sockets and testing against radiator pipes, then against radiator pipes to the shower, in what appeared to be differing combinations...
Nothing, he said he saw 1v at one point but said he was out of ideas as to what is causing it...
SO, I'm not sure whether to feel reassured or not to be honest, I know what I'm feeling, although nobody else in the house has noticed it (which isn't a huge surprise as they're not as observant as me
)!His only comment was that there didn't appear to be "cross bonding" across all the pipework and that our existing consumer unit is of an old type so it may be wise to replace that with either a split load RCD or an RCBO in line with next years expected regs...
He wondered out loud if it might be intermittent, but no idea how to test that...
It makes me feel like I want a second opinion I think...
E
EddieM
Hmmm, so the electrician has been.
He went around the house testing with a multi-function meter, he said that the earth to the house is all fine, he was plugging it into sockets and testing against radiator pipes, then against radiator pipes to the shower, in what appeared to be differing combinations...
Nothing, he said he saw 1v at one point but said he was out of ideas as to what is causing it...
SO, I'm not sure whether to feel reassured or not to be honest, I know what I'm feeling, although nobody else in the house has noticed it (which isn't a huge surprise as they're not as observant as me
His only comment was that there didn't appear to be "cross bonding" across all the pipework and that our existing consumer unit is of an old type so it may be wise to replace that with either a split load RCD or an RCBO in line with next years expected regs...
He wondered out loud if it might be intermittent, but no idea how to test that...
It makes me feel like I want a second opinion I think...
2 things.
1) DO NOT USE THE SHOWER
2) What you require is an answer and a fix, not an opinion.
Indeed, my worry now is how many electricians do I need to see before someone find something, there's a lot of trial and error getting someone good in...
True -provided that there is an answer which relates to something which needs to be fixed.
It sounds as if the (first) electrician has essentially ruled out there having been any problem (that could explain the OP's experiences) at the time of his inspection, since it sounds as if he demonstrated that there was no pd between the shower and anything else - so there would presumably have been no tingling experienced by someone who touched the shower and something else at that time. If there is problem which is intermittent, I need not tell you that it could be exceedingly difficult for anyone to detect.
In any event, I think you are taking "second opinion" a bit too literally - the OP's meaning and hope is presumably that a different electrician might be able to 'provide an answer and a fix' - but there is clearly no guarantee of that, particularly if something intermittent is gong on.
Kind Regards, John
There were some similar threads elsewhere in the recent past and, for whatever reason, none concluded with a reason for the problem nor a solution.
Presumably, if the shower pipe and metal waste are bonded then there can be no potential difference.
With a plastic waste, then what?
As this happens in two showers but to only one person who states he can feel varying degrees of tingle depending on the lights supply, I would think it is going to be quite difficult to determine.
Has anyone a likely theory on how this possible?.
Don't forget it is not an electric shower.
Presumably, if the shower pipe and metal waste are bonded then there can be no potential difference.
With a plastic waste, then what?
As this happens in two showers but to only one person who states he can feel varying degrees of tingle depending on the lights supply, I would think it is going to be quite difficult to determine.
Has anyone a likely theory on how this possible?.
Don't forget it is not an electric shower.
I just had someone round, and while he was fairly nonplussed, he did hazard a guess that it may be an earth/neutral leak on the lighting circuit (picking up on my observation that it seems to decreases if the light circuit is off)...
As a matter of safety I've asked him to quote for putting in RCBO's into the consumer unit, either through total replacement or replacing the MCB's, which he's going to look at as a possibility (it was suggested by him if the parts are available).
If I get RCD's all the way across the board, then at least there is greater protection, and presumably if there is a leak to earth one will trip.
He also offered that because it's only me in the house that so far has noticed it, it might be I am more sensitive to low voltage leaking than most, which seems plausible at least...
I do intend to pursue it, so if something does come to light I'll definitely post back here if only for someone else looking for help in a similar circumstance...
IN the meantime, I am very grateful for everyone's comments and ideas...
As a matter of safety I've asked him to quote for putting in RCBO's into the consumer unit, either through total replacement or replacing the MCB's, which he's going to look at as a possibility (it was suggested by him if the parts are available).
If I get RCD's all the way across the board, then at least there is greater protection, and presumably if there is a leak to earth one will trip.
He also offered that because it's only me in the house that so far has noticed it, it might be I am more sensitive to low voltage leaking than most, which seems plausible at least...
I do intend to pursue it, so if something does come to light I'll definitely post back here if only for someone else looking for help in a similar circumstance...
IN the meantime, I am very grateful for everyone's comments and ideas...
I suppose that doesn't really surprise me.
Indeed. In fact, if no explanation/solution can be found, then (even though it shouldn't really be necessary) bonding together everything metallic (within reason!) within each of the affected bathrooms ought to ensure, 'once and for all', that no pds can exist between anything and anything else within any of those rooms.,
Quite. The plastic waste might have an incredibly high resistance path to earth - but for that to result in a significant pd (albeit capable of resulting in virtually no current) relative to something would require that something to be at a high potential relative to earth - and that seems to be have excluded by the first electrician.
Indeed.
One thing that has not been given much attention (probably because we don't like/trust neon screwdrivers) is that we have been told that a neon screwdriver lights up when touched onto any tap in any bathroom (hence probably would when touched onto any of the pipework).
Although we don't trust such devices, this seems extremely odd (and something which I have rarely, if ever, encountered) - particularly given the fact that the main problem with these screwdrivers is that they can fail to light up when touched on something live, rather than that they do light up when touched on something which is not live. If one assumes that the electrician has confirmed that all the taps and pipework have an essentially zero pd relative to earth, what the OP describes implies that his body somehow has a fairly high capacitive coupling to L - which seems pretty odd. I suppose that could happen if there were a widespread L/N reversal throughout the installation (which the electrician would hopefully identified) but, apart from that, I would say that this widespread (and, IMO, rather extraordinary) lighting up of a neon screwdriver on taps throughout the house really needs some further thought and investigation, doesn't it?
Kind Regards, John
It should trip, but installing RCDs is not a substitute for locating faults and fixing them properly.
Do electricians not carry insulation testers these days?
I have been to a job with similar symptoms to yours. Turned out the floor was live due to a leak from the shower getting into a lighting circuit joint box below the floor.
How far is Southampton from Leeds? I get really frustrated with faults like this and the scores of electricians turning up without a clue about fault finding.
I have been to a job with similar symptoms to yours. Turned out the floor was live due to a leak from the shower getting into a lighting circuit joint box below the floor.
How far is Southampton from Leeds? I get really frustrated with faults like this and the scores of electricians turning up without a clue about fault finding.
Totally agree flameport, and if I had the skill/equipment I'd not rest until I found it, but getting the same response from most people is difficult! I suppose I'm targeting something that will fail safe at least, and it's a reasonable upgrade anyway as it brings the CU up to date..?
I don't know what one looks like RF Lighting, or what the test would constitute.
I think the trouble is with the majority of tradesmen (in my experience) is that as much as they hate clueless people, they don't take too well to being asked about the details of their tests, equipment etc, so it make it tough to direct them (and in fairness they shouldn't need me to do so).
The second guy seemed much more interested in the fault to be fair, and talked about trying to identify the leak by splitting the circuit, I just don't know how he'll find it if it's intermittent and so far I'm the only one who can feel it!!
Something of a diagnostic challenge.
Leeds is about 350 miles from Southampton
With respect to the "neon" screwdriver. Is it really a neon type, or one with an LED detector circuit powered by small button cells. If the latter, they are capable of being illuminated by just the "smell" of static. They are as useless as neon types when it comes to providing reliable evidence of problems.
E
EddieM
I have to agree with RF here, and disagree with others, "intermittent", "could be difficult to find" I am afraid in my book, that's a so what... that's what you're paid to do, if you're only a bread and butter trade, and I include my "trade" in that, then you need to know when you're stumped.... but... bring someone else in who can diagnose and fix. If the OP is getting a "tingle" then something is clearly very wrong.
Sorry John, missed your post. so you're suggesting that a possible answer might be that Live and Neutral have been reversed inside the property.. that being the case, wouldn't that have come up at some time in the past?
I had a kitchen fitted in about 2006/07 and that was independently certified, would that not have been spotted then or is the test too high level to identify it?