After some advice: Mild tingle from shower when in use

[JohnW2]

I just had someone round, and while he was fairly nonplussed, he did hazard a guess that it may be an earth/neutral leak on the lighting circuit (picking up on my observation that it seems to decreases if the light circuit is off)...

Whilst that obviously could represent a 'link'between the phenomenon you are experiencing and the lighting circuit, I have to say that I am at a loss to see how that could explain what you have been indicating. Furthermore, as RF has implied, if he suggested that there might be a N-E leak, why on earth did he not test to see if there was such a leak?!

He also offered that because it's only me in the house that so far has noticed it, it might be I am more sensitive to low voltage leaking than most, which seems plausible at least...

That's obviously a possibility (we're all different!) but there should not really be even a small voltage there to feel.

Kind Regards, John

 

[TheGovernor]

I have to agree with RF here, and disagree with others, "intermittent", "could be difficult to find" I am afraid in my book, that's a so what... that's what you're paid to do, if you're only a bread and butter trade, and I include my "trade" in that, then you need to know when you're stumped.... but... bring someone else in who can diagnose and fix. If the OP is getting a "tingle" then something is clearly very wrong.

I agree with you both My problem as a lowly domestic consumer is that finding someone who has the right combination of skill, experience and attitude is astonishingly difficult and I could very easily work my through the phone book, or Check-a-trade and never find someone who knows what to do for what is, apparently, an increasingly odd problem...

 

[JohnW2]

Sorry John, missed your post. so you're suggesting that a possible answer might be that Live and Neutral have been reversed inside the property.. that being the case, wouldn't that have come up at some time in the past? ... I had a kitchen fitted in about 2006/07 and that was independently certified, would that not have been spotted then or is the test too high level to identify it?

I wouldn't really saying that I was 'suggesting it as a possible answer' - since, as both I and (now) you have said, that really should have been picked up, either in the past or during the recent investigations.

What I did say was that I cannot (yet!) think of any other explanation for your experiences with your neon screwdriver. Assuming you haven't taken advice and thrown it out, is it still the case that, now, it still lights up when you touch any tap in any bathroom? What about when you touch it on CH radiators/pipes etc. (assuming you can find some bits that aren't covered in paint!) throughout the house, or the metal cases (again, assuming you can find paint-free bits) of plugged-in appliances like washing machines etc.?

Kind Regards, John

 

[TheGovernor]

I wouldn't really saying that I was 'suggesting it as a possible answer' - since, as both I and (now) you have said, that really should have been picked up, either in the past or during the recent investigations.

Sorry John, I wasn't trying to lay it all on you

What I did say was that I cannot (yet!) think of any other explanation for your experiences with your neon screwdriver. Assuming you haven't taken advice and thrown it out, is it still the case that, now, it still lights up when you touch any tap in any bathroom? What about when you touch it on CH radiators/pipes etc. (assuming you can find some bits that aren't covered in paint!) throughout the house, or the metal cases (again, assuming you can find paint-free bits) of plugged-in appliances like washing machines etc.?

Kind Regards, John

Inspired by your question I sauntered off to find my neon, now as it happens I have three

Two of the push-button with spring inside types and one that just has a metal cap. Now I never use them (normally) to detect electricity so for all I know, none of them work. Hopefully the following makes sense.

If I use either of the push-button types, hold it against anything metal, they don't light, with or without the button pressed in (can you tell I don't normally use them for detecting electricity!).

If I use the other one I have with a metal cap, if I hold it to any pipework, tap, unpainted radiator part, it lights brightly if I put my thumb on the cap at the top. If I don't put my thumb on it doesn't light up.

I also have one of those light-up plastic voltage detector pens, which does not light up when offered to pipework etc. I have used this before to check power to light switches and the like very reliably in the past, so I trust it... as much as I trust anything at this point!

So, on the balance of probability, three of the four devices I've used, show nothing... so why do my fingers tingle and why am I still suspicious..?

[Edit] Can I just say, without being sycophantic, how much I appreciate all of the contributions to my thread, as you can tell I am no expert, I just know enough to know when to be suspicious... I am in IT so have a fairly diagnostic mind generally speaking (don't attack me ), so usually with enough information I can work things out, but this is well beyond my skillset

 

[JohnW2]

Two of the push-button with spring inside types and one that just has a metal cap. Now I never use them (normally) to detect electricity so for all I know, none of them work. Hopefully the following makes sense.... I also have one of those light-up plastic voltage detector pens, which does not light up when offered to pipework etc. I have used this before to check power to light switches and the like very reliably in the past, so I trust it... as much as I trust anything at this point!

Is there any chance that you could post a photo of these various devices, so we're sure that we know exactly what we're talking about?

If I use either of the push-button types, hold it against anything metal, they don't light, with or without the button pressed in (can you tell I don't normally use them for detecting electricity!). ... If I use the other one I have with a metal cap, if I hold it to any pipework, tap, unpainted radiator part, it lights brightly if I put my thumb on the cap at the top. If I don't put my thumb on it doesn't light up.

Despite all the failings of these things, that really doesn't sound right to me - what do others think?

Kind Regards, John

 

[TheGovernor]

Is there any chance that you could post a photo of these various devices, so we're sure that we know exactly what we're talking about?

Of course, I'm grateful for your attention!! Pictures below

Despite all the failings of these things, that really doesn't sound right to me - what do others think?

Kind Regards, John

Bear in mind that there is a variable in the mix here, that is to say me, so if I am inadvertently going down cul-de-sacs or being a bit random, bear with me

Hope this works

Push button type

[GALLERY=media, 84341][/GALLERY]

Metal cap type

[GALLERY=media, 84342][/GALLERY]

Volt Pen

[GALLERY=media, 84343][/GALLERY]

 

[EFLImpudence]

The top one is the dreaded neon.

The second indicates voltage when tip contacts the conductor without touching the top and continuity when touching the top.

The third is a non-contact voltage indicator.

 

[Jackrae]

The first is a true neon type that needs about 60 volts to excite the light.

The second is an LED amplifier design that will illuminate if you touch both ends simultaneously so require virtually zero to excite the light, hence my previous statement that they'll illuminate if they even "smell" voltage.

The last senses electrical field to trigger the light and don't even need contact with a mains voltage.

None are reliable as safe sensing/detection devices - but that's only my personal opinion.

edit : Pipped to the post

 

[Taylortwocities]

The above does underline the fact that the CPS schemes sign up "electricians" who only have basic installation skills.

IMO it should be a requirement for all electricians to have a test and inspection qualification (of the 2391 standard - not the watered down version that is C&G's current pathetic offering)

I would suggest, dear OP, that you don't use Trade Directories like Check-a-Trade if you need anything out of the ordinary done. A recent survey found that all you need to be included is to pay some money and falsify a customer reference

Have a look at the NAPIT website . their FULL ELECTRICAL MEMBERS are required to have a current Inspection and Testing Certificate to BS7671 i.e. C&G 2391**, C&G 2400** or NA-A1A5*

 

[RF Lighting]

I found a photo of a consumer unit I installed on the my builder website in someone's portfolio. I have to wonder how bad their work is if they have to steal photos to build a portfolio.

 

[JohnW2]

Of course, I'm grateful for your attention!! Pictures below

OK - thanks. As has been observed, your photos indicate that it was not a "dreaded neon screwdriver" that was lighting up brightly on all your taps, radiators and pipes, so I can withdraw my suggestion that something seemingly very wrong was going going on. As Jackrae has indicated, the device you used which lighted up is ultra-sensitive, so it's lighting up does not necessarily indicate the presence of a significant voltage.

... which somewhat takes us back to square one, with you needing a competent proper electrician with a full set of test kit (and the knowledge of how and why to use it, and how to interpret the results) to look further into your problem

I know it's not what you want to hear, but if I had to put money on the ultimate outcome of this story, my money would probably be on no electrician ever being able to find anything wrong or any explanation for what you have experienced.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Jackrae]

Bare with me on this one guys and scoff if you want :

Suppose that all the in-house plumbing, including the shower system is correctly and properly bonded to the service supply earthing system, ie the substation transformer ground point.

Now suppose the drain line from the shower is plumbed in PVC to the sewage system, ie not bonded to the house earth point. And suppose that somewhere outside the house, that sewer has a weep into the subsoil.

Since a ground potential gradient naturally exists in soil due to differing chemistry, it is feasible that the point of seepage has a different electrical potential than the grounding point on the substation transformer.

Since water is a conductor (albeit a poor one) there is a path for current flow, and hence a potential difference to develop between the wet floor of the shower, the sub-station transformer ground point and hence the shower pipework.

Edit : If the shower has a metal outlet, and this was electrically bonded to the shower pipework the in-shower potential would be zero and so eliminate the effect. However this would neither mitigate nor not correct any potential wiring defect.

 

[TheGovernor]

Too many comments to quote (thank you!)

Just in terms of the screwdriver in the second picture giving a continuity test when I touch the cap, if I touch the cap and I'm stood outside the shower on a lino floor, with the blade touching the main body of the shower, what continuity am I measuring? I don't doubt what I'm being told, I just want to understand really.

My sincere apologies for the erroneous info, I assumed it was a neon like the other two...

Just regarding the NAPIT website, thanks for the tip and link, I'll check it out, although having used similar certification schemes for other trades even that sort of certification isn't a guarantee, I suppose it's sort of an equivalent in IT that there used to be loads of people with MCSE/CCNA certification, but one would be great and another useless even though they were on the face of it equally qualified...

JohnW2 - I fear you may be right. I guess if I get the CU "upgraded" to something with RCD across all loads then at least I've had a good job done that adds extra safety, the rest may come down to me being more sensitive than most to any difference in potential..(?)

Again, I appreciate every single response, while I am somewhat reassured by the posts telling me I was misinterpreting what the "devices" were telling me, I am still left with the "I'm still feeling something" feeling... maybe I'm just nuts!

 

[JohnW2]

Suppose that all the in-house plumbing, including the shower system is correctly and properly bonded to the service supply earthing system, ie the substation transformer ground point. ... Now suppose the drain line from the shower is plumbed in PVC to the sewage system, ie not bonded to the house earth point. And suppose that somewhere outside the house, that sewer has a weep into the subsoil. ... Since a ground potential gradient naturally exists in soil due to differing chemistry, it is feasible that the point of seepage has a different electrical potential than the grounding point on the substation transformer. ... Since water is a conductor (albeit a poor one) there is a path for current flow, and hence a potential difference to develop between the wet floor of the shower, the sub-station transformer ground point and hence the shower pipework.

I suppose nothing is impossible (particularly if/when one can't think think of any better ideas!), but I still don't think I'll be putting any money on that (clever) idea!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

My sincere apologies for the erroneous info, I assumed it was a neon like the other two...

No problem - but, just for the record, the third one isn't a neon, either

JohnW2 - I fear you may be right. I guess if I get the CU "upgraded" to something with RCD across all loads then at least I've had a good job done that adds extra safety, the rest may come down to me being more sensitive than most to any difference in potential..(?)

Yes, I agree with all of that.

Kind Regards, John