Being a Jew illegal.. sometimes

Perhaps they are trying to ensure it can never happen again?

Normally when there is war, one beats the other in to surrender, one wipes the other out or they keep fighting forever.

This is a war and it wont stop until one side concedes defeat.

War is bad - its best not to start them - bit late for that now.
 
motorbiking said:
Perhaps they are trying to ensure it can never happen again?

Normally when there is war, one beats the other in to surrender, one wipes the other out or they keep fighting forever.

This is a war and it wont stop until one side concedes defeat.

War is bad - its best not to start them - bit late for that now.
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Then they're ****ing stupid. Bombing people doesn't prevent further extremism, it creates more of it. No one believes Israel will destroy Hamas this way. But they aren't trying to beat Hamas, or get the hostages back They're trying to cleanse Gaza and remove or kill the inhabitants. Also wars are fought to a standstill on many occasions and peace is declared. Wars can be win, lose and draw.

There is no reason peaceful coexistence isn't possible, but it is hard. Mentally harder than genocide but it usually kills fewer children.

This 'War' goes back all the way to the creation of Israel and the displacement of the native population. It might not excuse Oct 7th but pretending that Hamas just launched the attacks without any provocation is silly.
 
JonathanM said:
Maybe secretly funding Hamas wasn't a good idea.
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If you want peace it is terrible idea.

If you want to prevent a unified Palestinian government and want to continue annexing the West bank, it's a great plan. Which is why Netanyahu has been on favour of Hamas for so long.

Edit: I'm not being sarcastic here by the way, Netanyahu has previously said how glad he was that Hamas was around.
 
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IT Minion said:
Then they're ****ing stupid. Bombing people doesn't prevent further extremism, it creates more of it. No one believes Israel will destroy Hamas this way. But they aren't trying to beat Hamas, or get the hostages back They're trying to cleanse Gaza and remove or kill the inhabitants. Also wars are fought to a standstill on many occasions and peace is declared. Wars can be win, lose and draw.

There is no reason peaceful coexistence isn't possible, but it is hard. Mentally harder than genocide but it usually kills fewer children.

This 'War' goes back all the way to the creation of Israel and the displacement of the native population. It might not excuse Oct 7th but pretending that Hamas just launched the attacks without any provocation is silly.
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Generally speaking wars that are fought to a stand still or even peace being declared only ever result in a temporary peace.

Lasting peace occurs when one's ability to fight is dismantled and the leadership and ideals are changed.
 
motorbiking said:
Generally speaking wars that are fought to a stand still or even peace being declared only ever result in a temporary peace.

Lasting peace occurs when one's ability to fight is dismantled and the leadership and ideals are changed.
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On a long enough time frame all peace is temporary. And you can never permanently dismantle an enemies ability to fight without skipping straight to Genocide. I'll bet more wars were fought to a draw than to an outright destruction of one side.

France and the UK have managed to remain at peace for 200 years now and France has rebuilt her weapons of war since 1815.
 
JonathanM said:
Maybe secretly funding Hamas wasn't a good idea.
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It wasn't really that much of a secret, and it wasn't so much Israel funding Hamas but allowing suitcases of cash in from Qatar and other players, Egypt assisted with negotiations. Netanyahu thought buying Hamas in as a partner would maintain the separation between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank which would help prevent the establishment of a Palestinian State, it did, but Hamas became too powerful.

It's a mess, that's why Netanyahu really does need to go.
 
fillyboy said:
Netanyahu thought buying Hamas in as a partner would maintain the separation between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank which would help prevent the establishment of a Palestinian State, it did, but Hamas became too powerful.
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The PA, HAMAS and FATAH do appear to have tried to sort themselves out. Mess and signs of interference. Long read
en.wikipedia.org

Palestinian National Authority - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

There are several awkward buggers involved in the mess. Sound like the west and Israel too.

I was curious about PA controlled cities/towns in the west bank and also Israeli occupation and controls in these areas. We mostly hear about refugee camps in this area. A town was mentioned but it turned out to be a nearby camp. This is covered under administrative divisions. The PA even have problems controlling their own citizens.
 
ajohn said:
There are several awkward buggers involved in the mess. Sound like the west and Israel too.
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And I daresay it's futile just the Israelis sitting down with the Palestinians, all the players need to be involved, Blinken, and various Arab states. (Not Iran, they're ******g nutters.)
 
fillyboy said:
And I daresay it's futile just the Israelis sitting down with the Palestinians, all the players need to be involved, Blinken, and various Arab states. (Not Iran, they're ******g nutters.)
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Once you start leaving people out, even though I understand why you would want to, you are just kicking the can down the road

Like it or lump it, it needs full involvement.
 
carmanmemoranda said:
Once you start leaving people out, even though I understand why you would want to, you are just kicking the can down the road

Like it or lump it, it needs full involvement.
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There really is no need for Iran to be involved. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi and Qatar at a push. There's no place for Iran in peace talks, they've made their intentions in the area perfectly clear, and it don't involve peace, nor will it as long as the Ayatollahs are around.
 
fillyboy said:
There really is no need for Iran to be involved. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi and Qatar at a push. There's no place for Iran in peace talks, they've made their intentions in the area perfectly clear, and it don't involve peace, nor will it as long as the Ayatollahs are around.
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And what about usa, uk, the west in general, China etc?

I'm no fan of Iran, but leaving people out won't cure anything
 
IT Minion said:
I don't agree with that, but i assume there a limit to what revenge you think Israel is justified in taking?

They've already killed far than Hamas did, so it isn't an eye for an eye anymore. If killing 30 people for each dead isn't enough, what would be too many?
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Israel should continue until all the hostages have been released.
 
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