Hot water mystery - faulty boiler?
- Thread starter pulck
- Start date
So I've just had a quote from a plumber to replace the stopcock. He's telling me £500 (per man) for labour and £150-250 for parts. He is saying it is a big job because he would have to dig around the hole to create space to work and then replace the stopcock with a commercial valve. I'm not quite sure why he believes he needs to do those 2 things but, as you can tell, I'm no expert.
He has not actually visited yet, but gave the quote on the basis of some photos I sent him (see attached). Unfortunately, you cannot actually see the stopcock tap in the photos because it's under water.
I was shocked at this quote but maybe it is not unreasonable. What are your thoughts?
[GALLERY=media, 102494]IMG_20190128_142144 by pulck posted 30 Jan 2019 at 10:39 AM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 102493]IMG_20190128_142128 by pulck posted 30 Jan 2019 at 10:39 AM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 102492]IMG_20190128_142123 by pulck posted 30 Jan 2019 at 10:39 AM[/GALLERY]
He has not actually visited yet, but gave the quote on the basis of some photos I sent him (see attached). Unfortunately, you cannot actually see the stopcock tap in the photos because it's under water.
I was shocked at this quote but maybe it is not unreasonable. What are your thoughts?
[GALLERY=media, 102494]IMG_20190128_142144 by pulck posted 30 Jan 2019 at 10:39 AM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 102493]IMG_20190128_142128 by pulck posted 30 Jan 2019 at 10:39 AM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 102492]IMG_20190128_142123 by pulck posted 30 Jan 2019 at 10:39 AM[/GALLERY]
They are exploiting the fact that it's all guess work what's down there.
Even if you have limited diy skills there's nothing to stop you excavating around the stopcock and baling out the water.
Then get some quotes...
Even if you have limited diy skills there's nothing to stop you excavating around the stopcock and baling out the water.
Then get some quotes...
As above. Digging the blocks/bricks out from around the stoptap will be boring but doable. Once you've got a nice big easy access hole then take some pics and get some more quotes.
Do take the opportunity to check what your supply pipe is- if its lead then just replacing the stoptap may not solve your problem
Do take the opportunity to check what your supply pipe is- if its lead then just replacing the stoptap may not solve your problem
Thanks for the warning! How can I tell if it's lead?
I've got someone coming to have a look this afternoon. If his price is also high, I'll probably follow your suggestion of bailing/digging out the hole.
How would you go about syphoning water out of a hole in the ground. Cup and bucket sounds like it might be time-consuming!
plumbers are weedy little fellows with petal soft hands, so are reluctant to do pick and shovel work or moving concrete.
If you are a tough guy you can dig it out and see what's what. You could also rebuild the pit yourself .
A wet and dry vac will quickly suck water and mud out of a hole. Maybe 20 litres at a time. Very handy thing to have if you like DIY.
This one will be handy later, as it has a take-off socket where you can plug in, say, a saw, sander or planer, and it will start the vac when the tool starts.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/titan-ttb430vac-1400w-30ltr-wet-dry-vacuum-cleaner-240v/70472
It's a cheap brand but has a good guarantee so buy it at the start of your project and get your money's worth. Places like Aldi often do something similar.
For wet work, you'll use the cartridge filter. You can hose it clean of mud afterwards. You can get big bags which are better for sawdust, builders dust and dry rubbish.
If you are a tough guy you can dig it out and see what's what. You could also rebuild the pit yourself .
A wet and dry vac will quickly suck water and mud out of a hole. Maybe 20 litres at a time. Very handy thing to have if you like DIY.
This one will be handy later, as it has a take-off socket where you can plug in, say, a saw, sander or planer, and it will start the vac when the tool starts.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/titan-ttb430vac-1400w-30ltr-wet-dry-vacuum-cleaner-240v/70472
It's a cheap brand but has a good guarantee so buy it at the start of your project and get your money's worth. Places like Aldi often do something similar.
For wet work, you'll use the cartridge filter. You can hose it clean of mud afterwards. You can get big bags which are better for sawdust, builders dust and dry rubbish.
Lead pipe is mucky grey but will shine if you scratch it. It is very soft as well- a boot driven spade will go straight through it.
When you get near pipe depth, start digging from either side (or 1 side) of the pipe's path (draw a straight line from garden stoptap to street stoptap and look at the tap & see which directions the pipes enter)
When you get near pipe depth, start digging from either side (or 1 side) of the pipe's path (draw a straight line from garden stoptap to street stoptap and look at the tap & see which directions the pipes enter)
OK, so I have dug out around the stopcock. Below are some pics and a video of the leaking tap.
I sent these pics to a plumber who quoted £250 (incl. parts) to replace the stopcock (I would do the backfilling). Maybe I'm being unreasonable, but does that still sound expensive?
I assumed this was a quick job and I would have a go a doing it myself, but I'd be worried about causing a bigger leak, especially if that is a lead pipe.
[GALLERY=media, 102511]IMG_20190131_124417 by pulck posted 1 Feb 2019 at 9:48 AM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 102510]IMG_20190131_124355 by pulck posted 1 Feb 2019 at 9:48 AM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 102509]IMG_20190131_124345 by pulck posted 1 Feb 2019 at 9:48 AM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 102512]VID_20190131_124716 by pulck posted 1 Feb 2019 at 9:51 AM[/GALLERY]
I sent these pics to a plumber who quoted £250 (incl. parts) to replace the stopcock (I would do the backfilling). Maybe I'm being unreasonable, but does that still sound expensive?
I assumed this was a quick job and I would have a go a doing it myself, but I'd be worried about causing a bigger leak, especially if that is a lead pipe.
[GALLERY=media, 102511]IMG_20190131_124417 by pulck posted 1 Feb 2019 at 9:48 AM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 102510]IMG_20190131_124355 by pulck posted 1 Feb 2019 at 9:48 AM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 102509]IMG_20190131_124345 by pulck posted 1 Feb 2019 at 9:48 AM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 102512]VID_20190131_124716 by pulck posted 1 Feb 2019 at 9:51 AM[/GALLERY]
so it's leaking (quite badly) round the spindle. I'm not a plumber and have not done many of these. The pipe looks straight and rigid, lead is often a bit floppy, it might be you have a steel pipe.
Sometimes you can tighten the gland nut a little to seal the spindle, I can't make out how yours is made. Stopcock designs are slow to change, and if you can get an identical one, you will find (practice on the kitchen table) that the "headworks" (the moving parts) can be unscrewed from the body and swapped with a new one. Or you can take the head apart (slower) and reseal the spindle with PTFE or greasy rope, depending on your age. You would find it easier if you had more room to work. A wrinkly old plumber will have done lots of these.
To work on it yourself you will have to turn off the supply at the stopcock or water meter under the pavement.
On balance, I think this might not be the best choice for your first foray into DIY plumbing. If you get it wrong your house will be without water and you might have an uncontrollable gusher.
It might be worth calling your water co, tell them your stopcock is leaking round the spindle, some of them will help because they have a target to cut leaks.
Sometimes you can tighten the gland nut a little to seal the spindle, I can't make out how yours is made. Stopcock designs are slow to change, and if you can get an identical one, you will find (practice on the kitchen table) that the "headworks" (the moving parts) can be unscrewed from the body and swapped with a new one. Or you can take the head apart (slower) and reseal the spindle with PTFE or greasy rope, depending on your age. You would find it easier if you had more room to work. A wrinkly old plumber will have done lots of these.
To work on it yourself you will have to turn off the supply at the stopcock or water meter under the pavement.
On balance, I think this might not be the best choice for your first foray into DIY plumbing. If you get it wrong your house will be without water and you might have an uncontrollable gusher.
It might be worth calling your water co, tell them your stopcock is leaking round the spindle, some of them will help because they have a target to cut leaks.
Good work there, well done.
Yes that looks like lead, you are right to be wary of it.
Now the bad news- as i said earlier, fixing the tap may not solve the problem if the supply pipe is lead.
How far from that hole is the street stoptap? And how accessible is the pipe on the other side of that wall (presumably the kitchen?)
Reason i ask- now is the time to replace that lead pipe (which is probably half full of scale) with 25mm blue plastic. Usual deal is if you get the trench and pipe to your boundary, water board will change street connection for free but you have to get rid of all the lead (including the bits hidden behind your kitchen units).
Obvs this is a big job. £250 for plumber to replace that tap is a bit steep- he's allowing a full day for the job- but if that's the price round your way then thats the price.
At that money I'be tempted to carefully try what someone else suggested (dismantle the tap and clean out or replace the innards). If that solves the problem then happy days, if not then time for that new supply pipe
If it all goes tits-up and you damage the pipe, you can do a short-term bodge with car radiator pipe, jubilee clips and silicon (so you'll still have water while you dig the trench & kitchen out).
Have fun
EDIT clean the pipe as well as possible then scratch it with a nail or screw. Lead is soft & will show a shiny grey scratch. Steel is much harder. The bulge at the tap makes me think lead but i may be wrong- if its steel the the risk of damaging the pipe is much lower (as is the scrap value)
Yes that looks like lead, you are right to be wary of it.
Now the bad news- as i said earlier, fixing the tap may not solve the problem if the supply pipe is lead.
How far from that hole is the street stoptap? And how accessible is the pipe on the other side of that wall (presumably the kitchen?)
Reason i ask- now is the time to replace that lead pipe (which is probably half full of scale) with 25mm blue plastic. Usual deal is if you get the trench and pipe to your boundary, water board will change street connection for free but you have to get rid of all the lead (including the bits hidden behind your kitchen units).
Obvs this is a big job. £250 for plumber to replace that tap is a bit steep- he's allowing a full day for the job- but if that's the price round your way then thats the price.
At that money I'be tempted to carefully try what someone else suggested (dismantle the tap and clean out or replace the innards). If that solves the problem then happy days, if not then time for that new supply pipe
If it all goes tits-up and you damage the pipe, you can do a short-term bodge with car radiator pipe, jubilee clips and silicon (so you'll still have water while you dig the trench & kitchen out).
Have fun
EDIT clean the pipe as well as possible then scratch it with a nail or screw. Lead is soft & will show a shiny grey scratch. Steel is much harder. The bulge at the tap makes me think lead but i may be wrong- if its steel the the risk of damaging the pipe is much lower (as is the scrap value)
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Thanks. I think you're right - I'm nervous about what happens if I cause a bigger leak. I suppose that's why I'm paying extra for the plumber.
Also, I'm keen to get the whole tap replaced. I have been having ongoing water pressure problems and the Thames Water engineer suggested that the rubber seal inside the ancient tap could be blocking the flow.
However, while I'm backfilling I did think I could make my life a bit easier by buying a plastic chamber rather than re-using the old bricks. I see the plastic ones are available at Screwfix for about £30. Sounds like a good investment.
Sadly that's not the kitchen on the other side of that wall - that's the pavement/road. So the mains stoptap is only about 3-4 feet away.
The kitchen is in the other direction - behind me as I'm holding the camera. That pipe almost certainly runs under my front garden (about 10'), under my hallway/front room (about 20-30'), then under my tiled kitchen floor (about 20') before it reaches the kitchen tap. So replacing the pipe would, I guess, cost me thousands. I'm going to have to save that for a very rainy day.
I spoke to my neighbour who has lived in his house for 40 years. He replaced his lead pipe - himself! - when he had just moved in. He obviously had some foresight.
the flow will be restricted because I think you have a half-inch steel supply pipe. I think that's a screwed steel collar, it's not a wiped lead joint.
If you feel up to it you could dig a trench out to the water meter or stopcock under the pavement and lay a larger plastic pipe. But you would have to pay the water co to connect it (sometimes they will do lead replacement connections free or subsidised)
Increasing the incoming pipe size makes a surprising difference to flow, though you should also renew the pipe inside the house, presumably under the floor.
New pipes do not have to follow the same route as old ones if it inconvenient.
If you feel up to it you could dig a trench out to the water meter or stopcock under the pavement and lay a larger plastic pipe. But you would have to pay the water co to connect it (sometimes they will do lead replacement connections free or subsidised)
Increasing the incoming pipe size makes a surprising difference to flow, though you should also renew the pipe inside the house, presumably under the floor.
New pipes do not have to follow the same route as old ones if it inconvenient.