Inherited a seemingly ancient CH system...

[Agile]

The Ideal Classics were produced over a number of years and were made in several different versions.

The main differences were that some had permanent pilots and no fan and others had a fan and pilot which was lit electronically when there was a demand.

Since permanent pilots consume gas all the time they result in lower overall efficiencies hence they are no longer used.

The non fanned versions, although slightly less efficient are very reliable indeed and for many it would be a very unwise decision to replace them if still working. They need the thermocouple replacing every few years but that is a simple and cheap repair and often done on a preventative basis with every 3rd to 5th service.

The fanned versions may have a reputation for being reliable but as the fan sits on top of the cast iron heat exchanger it is operating in a hot environment and it is a common problem for the bearings to dry out and seize up. Those are the ones that I often have to go and repair.

With a fanned Classic there may be a justification for a service plan but on the non fanned version it would be far cheaper to call a local RGI to annually service and in the rare event of any other fault to repair it.

Tony

 

[greenstarthree01]

Sorry all, been away for the weekend with zero phone signal. Which was quite nice, really!

I do remember that about Corgi Home Plan, that they essentially just used the name after Corgi stopped being a 'badge of approval' so to speak, replaced by the Gas Safe Register, right?
The system in the new place does seem, although old, to have not been neglected at least . There's also a MagnaClean unit installed as it happens. I guess time will tell in terms of running costs and it's good to hear the boiler itself isn't generally a lemon! Ours does have a permanent pilot, and as it's a room sealed model would that mean it is fanned?

Starting to be tempted to skip taking out cover on the system and just put the equivalent money away in case of breakdown, and use to hire a local plumber at the time (as well as for an annual service). We only had one minor repair done on our last boiler through Corgi Home Plan and while it went without a hitch the engineer was keen to tell us how the boiler needed replacing very soon (it was 7 years old). So many bad experiences to read about with boiler cover plans!

 

[Agile]

Yours does not have a fan and very little to go wrong apart from an occasional thermocouple.

Tony

 

[greenstarthree01]

Ah, fair enough, cheers Tony. Maybe an argument then, depending on bills, against replacing something with so little to go wrong, with a combi where there's a bit more going on!

 

[Agile]

A cylinder is a far better source of hot water than a combi.

But rather than fitting an unvented cylinder to replace a loft tank fed cylinder many fit a combi. A retrograde step in my view.

The only advantage of a combi is in a small flat where space is at a premium.

Your boiler will probably last at least another 10 years with just one thermocouple change.

Many combis hardly last 10 years. Unless it is a Vokera of course [ or an Intergas ].

 

[Smithy the plumber]

Sorry all, been away for the weekend with zero phone signal. Which was quite nice, really!

I do remember that about Corgi Home Plan, that they essentially just used the name after Corgi stopped being a 'badge of approval' so to speak, replaced by the Gas Safe Register, right?
The system in the new place does seem, although old, to have not been neglected at least . There's also a MagnaClean unit installed as it happens. I guess time will tell in terms of running costs and it's good to hear the boiler itself isn't generally a lemon! Ours does have a permanent pilot, and as it's a room sealed model would that mean it is fanned?

Starting to be tempted to skip taking out cover on the system and just put the equivalent money away in case of breakdown, and use to hire a local plumber at the time (as well as for an annual service). We only had one minor repair done on our last boiler through Corgi Home Plan and while it went without a hitch the engineer was keen to tell us how the boiler needed replacing very soon (it was 7 years old). So many bad experiences to read about with boiler cover plans!

Good shout for keeping away from Corgi insurance, I used to contract to them & they were always complaining about the cost of parts, Great to here that someone has installed a Magnaclean Filter that will help protect your system, just make sure it is cleaned when you have a service, Just get your other controls checked & fit thermostatic radiator valves where required as this will help reduce running costs, other things to check is Loft insulation & wall insulation, both these can be done Free or with a grant if the scheme is still running Local council will give you information on that

 

[greenstarthree01]

Hi all,
Just had a little time to play.

I made sure that all of our cold water feeds (all cold taps, toilets, elec shower) are directly mains-fed, by turning off the mains and opening them up. They are as none would run. I'd read that some older systems had a cold water tank in the loft which just sounds like a world of hygiene problems, especially as we drink a ton of water. On that subject I've also made sure the thermostat stuck to the side of our hot water cylinder is above 60C, which I hear is the recommendation for killing bacteria there?
When my father was in the loft last week he said he thought he saw three header tanks, which struck me as strange. Haven't had time to check myself yet, but I thought standard was one for topping up the cylinder and one for the central heating loop?

The MagnaClean is next to the cylinder and there's a sticker on the boiler to say it was installed in 2010. There's also two stickers on the wall next to the MagnaClean to say Salamander "Fast Clean" and "Corrosion Guard Inhibitor" was used in 2007. Possible it's been done since (such as when the MagnaClean was fitted?) but not stickered, but there you go. How often is that sort of thing supposed to be done?

I still haven't got my head around where all the pipes in the airing cupboard go, but did see this device, which I believe is the 3-way valve mentioned earlier in the thread (the one pictured isn't my system):
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=b...=950&safe=active&ssui=on#imgrc=BRk7-O9AgUFR4M:

It has a switch on the top marked I, II, III:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=b...=950&safe=active&ssui=on#imgrc=oEapyzfxYdBerM:

Safe to assume these correspond to water only, CH only, and both (not necessarily in that order....?!)

 

[Mottie]

That's the pump. I II and III are the speed settings.

 

[greenstarthree01]

What a fool. Sorry, realised this myself just after posting (and verified with Google). Sorry!

As it happens the timer clock just reached an "on" period, and the pump does indeed run constantly during this time (it feels pretty hot), even though the thermostat is at minimum. The boiler however does not fire unless I turn up the thermostat, and the radiators remain cold but listening to them it sounds like water is circulating. Does that sound normal or possibly indicate a fault?

 

[stem]

Without examining the system to see what components it has and how it is plumbed and wired, it is impossible to tell you if it is working properly or not.

I used to live in a house where when the timer switched on, the pump and boiler both ran and circulated hot water around the cylinder and boiler. Once the water in the cylinder was hot, the boiler shut down but the pump ran continually and water continued to be circulated around the hot water cylinder. Because the cylinder and pipework were insulated, heat loss was minimal and so the boiler stayed off for most of the time.

The radiators had a single port motorised valve fitted that was controlled by a room thermostat. When the thermostat switched on, the valve opened (remember the pump is already running) and hot water from the boiler was then able to circulate around the radiators.

If your system is configured like that, what you describe would represent the normal method of operation.

If however your system has a three port motorised valve, something like below (this is a Honeywell other makes are similar)

[GALLERY=media, 21163]Untitled by stem posted 1 Apr 2010 at 3:54 PM[/GALLERY]

Or, two, two port valves something like below

[GALLERY=media, 20994]Untitled by stem posted 26 Mar 2010 at 10:00 AM[/GALLERY]

Then what you describe would not be correct.

The odd thing is that you say that you have a thermostat on the hot water cylinder. That is normally wired so that the system shuts down (including the pump) when the cylinder is hot. Does your thermostat look something like this? It will be strapped to the cylinder about one third of the way up from the bottom. (don't confuse it with any immersion heater)

[GALLERY=media, 29280]Untitled by stem posted 21 Dec 2010 at 7:29 PM[/GALLERY]

 

[Agile]

In a normally wired system everything should shut down if you turn the room stat down, including the pump ( after any pump over run )

 

[Smithy the plumber]

Seems you may have a wiring fault, room stat & cylinder stat usely mean a fully pumped system, So whatever is calling for heat (Heating or Hot water) will operate the boiler & pump, if hot water is up to temperature then the 3 way valve will close off that circuit leaving the heating system part operating, once the room stat is satisfied then the boiler and pump will go off, until a stat calls for heat again, get someone in to check what is going on, you could have a faulty timer, stat, or 3 way valve that is keeping the system running, and has B4 may need an update to more modern controls (Programmer) that will give you more control over what part of the system you want to use, (Run heating & Water) at different times.

 

[greenstarthree01]

Thanks guys. As you say I know it's impossible to tell without a plumber on site but I appreciate the advice despite my being green!

At first glance it does sound like the first system you describe, Stem. The only thing I see in the airing cupboard that resembles those valves is this:

From the side you can see it's a straight through pipe:

There's a black sort of lever switch on top of this, when I move it over, it sounds like it moves some small cogs or small motor or something, but it then returns to its original position (that's all I've messed with at the moment since I don't know what it is yet!). It's wired into a junction box where the pump and thermostat wires also go to.

The thermostat is indeed strapped round the cylinder and looks like an older version of your example (probably something else to upgrade!)

And just for the hell of it I took a picture of the cupboard in general, because why not:

Thanks again, I am learning, honest...!

 

[Agile]

You have a bare copper cylinder and according to your picture just one motor valve.

That means that the water is always being heated when the heating is on, regardless of its temperature.

Not the ideal situation.

It is not a massive job to add another motor valve to the hot water. That would probably even pay for itself in savings after a couple of years.

Replacing the cylinder with a nice insulated one would also reduce heat losses. But a rather longer payback of perhaps five years.

Tony

 

[Smithy the plumber]

Well that explains a lot! British gas have been messing around with system, you need to get system looked at controls updated & converted to fully pumped system buying a Control Pk will have all what is required, some alterations to pipes in cylinder cupboard and you will have a more controllable system