Wind Turbines

Hysteresis said:
Energy from Wind Turbines more expensive from wind farms than fossil fuel sources for some ridiculous reason.
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I think you are mistaken.

The nukes will sell into any market at any price.

Fossil will only sell cheap if they do not have time to turn the generators off.

I don't think we have any coal burners still in operation, though when they were burning up coal stocks, to save the cost of carting them away after demolition, they were willing to sell cheap.
 
Here is the latest 24 hour energy chart. Black chart is Demand. Others are Supply. Observe that Nukes (light green bar) provide a consistent supply. Wind (blue line) provides a lot more. Gas (red line) provides enough to make up the shortfall.

Wind is currently producing 15.4GW, about half the nation's demand, about the same as all week, ex ept for a calm spell on Tuesday, when the gas stations were turned up.

There are a few other minor lines that I have not shown. As they are much smaller they are on a bigger scale. Hydro has been about 1GW all day. France is currently sending us about 3GW of their surplus nuke power but it was less earlier.

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You can see the whole page on

G. B. National Grid status

www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
 
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JohnD said:
Again you are mistaken. NG does not have the power to make wind blow on a calm day
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That is a bit of a silly obvious remark. I did refer to the fact that I see many idle wind turbines on days that the wind speed window is acceptable. The window is acceptable on the days to which I refer because some turbines are rotating whilst many others are stationary.
 
JohnD said:
I think you are mistaken.

The nukes will sell into any market at any price.

Fossil will only sell cheap if they do not have time to turn the generators off.

I don't think we have any coal burners still in operation, though when they were burning up coal stocks, to save the cost of carting them away after demolition, they were willing to sell cheap.
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Again another silly JohnD remark. WInd Turbine operators can sell cheaper as they dont have fuel costs to shoulder, but they don't because their prices are linked to the market by legislation.
 
JohnD said:
Here is the latest 24 hour energy chart. Observe that Nukes (light green bar) provide a consistent supply. Wind (blue line) provides a lot more. Gas (red line) provides enough to make up the shortfall.

There are a few other minor lines.

View attachment 326816

You can see the whole page on

G. B. National Grid status

www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
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John, I am asking why the WInd Turbines dont provide the Base Load and the swings taken by Fossil fuel (Oil and Gas) and Nuclear stations.
Oil and Gas stations can be switched on and off relatively easily and quickly.
 
The swedes have just built an all wooden wind turbine

Up and running afaik ???
 
Hysteresis said:
John, I am asking why the WInd Turbines dont provide the Base Load and the swings taken by Fossil fuel (Oil and Gas) and Nuclear stations.
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Nukes don't provide base load. They are designed to be turned on and left on for 12-18 months at 100%. They are designed to be occasionally throttled down to 40% temporarily for on-load refuelling for AGR or islanding (loss of grid) for PWR but they don't like that for long as you get xenon buildup and uneven core burn up.

So we get baseload from nuclear, as much as possible from wind and solar, and whatever is left from gas. The peaks and troughs are smoothed out using batteries (takes under a second) and hydro (takes a minute or so to respond).
 
Hysteresis said:
Dont understand the £5.1Bn quoted as coming off Energy Bills. The price of Electricity is geared to Power Generation from ALL sources, infact Energy from Wind Turbines more expensive from wind farms than fossil fuel sources for some ridiculous reason. This is why Wind Turbines can be seen Idle for a lot of the time when the wind window is suitable because it is cheaper for the National Grid to buy power from Fossil Fuel sources rather than wind. National Grid buy their fuel from the lowest cost source, if WInd was cheaper then National grid would ensure Wind Turbines are ALWAY rotating and as such provide the Base Load. At least that is my simple understanding.
It would be ridiculous to purchase fossil fuel generation if wind was cheaper as such WInd Turbines would Always be rotating as long as there was enough wind to drive them and this is not my observation. I see 100's of wind turbines stationary even on days when the wind is in the wind speed window for their use.
If anyone reads the ORIGINAL posting of this thread, that was the basis of the thread and I have not seen a plausible explanation of why the numerous wind turbine are stationary on suitable wind days in all of the 36 pages of responses to this thread. Maybe I have missed a plausible explanation but it still remains that wind Power energy is more expensive than fossil fuels due to the pricing Policy of presumably government otherwise Wind would provide the base load for electric Power.
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maybe fossil fuel lobbyists give more money to govt than wind turbine lobbyists.

I dont think National Grid buys fuel, I though that was the various energy suppliers.




Current constraints in the transmission system and a lack of long-duration gridstorage often mean the UK is producing more electricity from wind powersources than it can use.

The only way to manage the grid imbalance, which happens when renewable power generation outstrips demand, is to curtail wind power.

That’s why the National Grid pays producers to turn off rather than overload the grid, especially during high wind times.
 
Notch7 said:
...
The only way to manage the grid imbalance, which happens when renewable power generation outstrips demand, is to curtail wind power.

That’s why the National Grid pays producers to turn off rather than overload the grid, especially during high wind times.
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...something that's already happening, and that I think we'll see more of, is electricity being free at the point of use, or even paying customers to use it, at times of potential overload...
 
StephenStephen said:
...something that's already happening, and that I think we'll see more of, is electricity being free at the point of use, or even paying customers to use it, at times of potential overload...
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We are seeing half price electricity deals during some hours on Sunday, so yes I can see what you are saying.

Im sceptical of a smart meter, so I might have to start rethinking that
 
Hysteresis said:
Dont understand the £5.1Bn quoted as coming off Energy Bills. The price of Electricity is geared to Power Generation from ALL sources
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If they're under the Contract for Difference deal and their agreed price is less than the market rate then any difference gets paid back.

Onshore wind is very cheap. In 2015, before it was effectively banned, the strike price was £81. Offshore was £120 at the same time. If we'd built out more then we'd have had a massive repayment during the gas shortage period
 
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